Republicans, Conservatives, and Trump

Tiassa

Let us not launch the boat ...
Valued Senior Member
The Obvious Question: Republicans, Conservatives, and Trump

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"I'll be on the veranda, since you're already on the cross." (Brian Griffin, 1999)

So, this came up again↗:

Therefore the problem isn't "conservatives". Trump and "conservatives" aren't the same thing.

This should (could? would?) be a fascinating discussion, but the thing is, the latter-day attempt to carve out conservatism from its own politics doesn't really go much further than insisting that the Republican Party politics of the last nearly ten years, a distillation of its politics for over forty years before that, are not conservative.

A straightforward question arises:

• When did the Republican Party stop being conservative?​

It should be easy enough to make the historical case, especially since we should be able to presuppose against the utter solipsism that Republicans were no longer conservative when it became inconvenient to the beholder.

Perhaps a little more subtle is a second obvious question: Compared to the shift away from conservatism, what should Republicans have done if they actually were conservative?

 
The Obvious Question: Republicans, Conservatives, and Trump

dali-1954-hypercube-detail-bw.png

"I'll be on the veranda, since you're already on the cross." (Brian Griffin, 1999)

So, this came up again↗:



This should (could? would?) be a fascinating discussion, but the thing is, the latter-day attempt to carve out conservatism from its own politics doesn't really go much further than insisting that the Republican Party politics of the last nearly ten years, a distillation of its politics for over forty years before that, are not conservative.

A straightforward question arises:

• When did the Republican Party stop being conservative?​

It should be easy enough to make the historical case, especially since we should be able to presuppose against the utter solipsism that Republicans were no longer conservative when it became inconvenient to the beholder.

Perhaps a little more subtle is a second obvious question: Compared to the shift away from conservatism, what should Republicans have done if they actually were conservative?


I don't care about anything other than specific issues at hand. Therefore I don't care what Democrats or Republicans stand for, when they stopped standing for something or what they should do.

An atheist doesn't really care about arguments between two theists trying to prove they have the "real" God. To me, it's the same with politics.

I'm not conservative on social issues. I don't care who someone marries, what they do in the bedroom, I'm for a woman's right to chose. I do find it a little annoying these days regarding the hypersensitivity over gender but I'm not worry about who goes into what bathroom.

My views on what the best solution is to a problem has nothing to do with Trump, Biden, Harris or anyone else.

I'm not particularly interested in contributing to an echo chamber bashing Trump but I'd feel the same regarding continually bashing Biden or being against every policy (as opposed to most) just because Biden said it.

As far as being a decent politician (which is a low bar), IMO Reagan was reasonably effective. As far as being a decent person, Obama meets that standard in my view.

Progressive policies are well meaning (in general) IMO. They just aren't effective in many cases because they address the wrong things, or because they don't think long-term or because they are emotion based and not based on reality, IMO.

Conservatism, in the sense that seems to get it right more often than not, to me, has to do with fiscal conservatism, largely being responsible for your own outcomes, keeping taxes low so that it is possible to take care of yourself without relying on the state excessively. It is also about having government where necessary and having it no larger than necessary.

That's a reasonable viewpoint even if it isn't the only reasonable viewpoint. It also doesn't mean that I'm saying we don't need the basic institutions and services. It doesn't mean that I'm implying that slavery, racism, woman's rights weren't helped along by government.

Regardless of how demeaning the comments on here from time to time are, my viewpoint is reasonable and in my opinion preferable to yours. I don't expect you to agree that mine are preferable but if you are rational (?) you should agree that mine is a mainstream and reasonable point of view.

Many issues aren't about conservatism or liberalism. Some solutions to problems are just better than others. I prefer those.

If you would argue that Biden never had a bad idea or that Trump never had a bad idea, you aren't really thinking and you are just reacting. I'm not for that.

If you think it's more persuasive to start a post with an illustration and even it with a YouTube song, great. That's one perspective I guess.
 
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Setting Aside the Freudian Slip

That's a reasonable viewpoint even if it isn't the only reasonable viewpoint. It also doesn't mean that I'm saying we don't need the basic institutions and services. It doesn't mean that I'm implying that slavery, racism, woman's rights weren't helped along by government.

Regardless of how demeaning the comments on here from time to time are, my viewpoint is reasonable and in my opinion preferable to yours. I don't expect you to agree that mine are preferable but if you are rational (?) you should agree that mine is a mainstream and reasonable point of view.

Yeah, sure, whatever, but you just skipped out on the question, again.

When did the Republican Party stop being conservative?

And, compared to the shift away from conservatism, what should Republicans have done if they actually were conservative?
 
Setting Aside the Freudian Slip



Yeah, sure, whatever, but you just skipped out on the question, again.

When did the Republican Party stop being conservative?

And, compared to the shift away from conservatism, what should Republicans have done if they actually were conservative?
Why are you asking me? I'm not the spokesperson for the Republican Party. Since Trump, the Republican Party has been about Trump. Trump used to be a Democrat. Now, he is basically just a cult.

Wide-spread tariffs aren't conservative. That's more up the alley of Buy American union banter. Tearing down institutions isn't conservative.

Let's face it. You don't really want answers. You just want an argument but only one that you can dismiss with "whatever".
 
Why are you asking me? I'm not the spokesperson for the Republican Party.

Yeah, whatever. That actually seems kind of disingenuous. After all:

Therefore the problem isn't "conservatives". Trump and "conservatives" aren't the same thing.

So, sure, again: When did the Republican Party stop being conservative?

And, compared to the shift away from conservatism, what should Republicans have done if they actually were conservative?
 
Regardless of how demeaning the comments on here from time to time are...
???

You are aware that whenever pretty much any other poster on this forum makes comments critical of another--or "demeaning comments"--these comments are typically related and relevant to the matter at hand; you are pretty much the only person on this forum who regularly who makes childish attacks, like insinuating that a person might be poor (?), homeless, living in their mother's basement, or a pedophile, yes?

Edit: a few more typical "demeaning comments" from you: "progressive", "woke", emotional, angry...
 
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Why are you asking me? I'm not the spokesperson for the Republican Party. Since Trump, the Republican Party has been about Trump. Trump used to be a Democrat. Now, he is basically just a cult.

Wide-spread tariffs aren't conservative. That's more up the alley of Buy American union banter. Tearing down institutions isn't conservative.

Let's face it. You don't really want answers. You just want an argument but only one that you can dismiss with "whatever".
I'm curious then, what should we be calling those 47% of the country that support Trump? Republicans? Conservatives? Fascists?
 
Even if those very same people call themselves 'Conservatives'?
Bernie Sanders is about American workers, unions are about bringing the jobs back here, Trump used to be a Democrat and he is for those things.

Does that sound like a conservative? Conservatives are about free trade, not for unions.

Trump followers are a cult following a cult leader.
 
Bernie Sanders is about American workers, unions are about bringing the jobs back here, Trump used to be a Democrat and he is for those things.
Strawmen.
Does that sound like a conservative? Conservatives are about free trade, not for unions.
Conservatives are not for unions because they want to screw over working people and not give them fair wages and instead reap huge profits.
Trump followers are a cult following a cult leader.
Trump followers call themselves Republicans and Conservatives.
 
Strawmen.

Conservatives are not for unions because they want to screw over working people and not give them fair wages and instead reap huge profits.

Trump followers call themselves Republicans and Conservatives.
OK, facts don't work for you so why bother asking questions?
 
OK, facts don't work for you so why bother asking questions?
Yet, facts are exactly what I was posting. What you were posting is probably what you were hoping wasn't true, most likely, based on your posts, you probably consider yourself conservative and not liberal/progressive and don't want to be considered part of the Trump cult. That said, you have said you prefer Trump's policies over anything progressive. I think that speaks volumes.
 
Yet, facts are exactly what I was posting. What you were posting is probably what you were hoping wasn't true, most likely, based on your posts, you probably consider yourself conservative and not liberal/progressive and don't want to be considered part of the Trump cult. That said, you have said you prefer Trump's policies over anything progressive. I think that speaks volumes.
Yes, it does. It says that I don't agree with progressive policies in general and it says that you are narrow minded as to alternative points of view.
 
...alternative points of view.
You're absolutely free to have your alternative point of view, regardless of whether it is right or wrong. In this case, it's wrong. Every single Trump supporter calls themselves Republican and Conservative. The fact that your alternative point of view denies that doesn't make it any less true.
 
You're absolutely free to have your alternative point of view, regardless of whether it is right or wrong. In this case, it's wrong. Every single Trump supporter calls themselves Republican and Conservative. The fact that your alternative point of view denies that doesn't make it any less true.
Who cares what they call themselves? What if they start calling themselves progressive? Would that make any difference?
 
The Distraction Is the Point
[bvs: To consider the implications of reticence.]

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There is a reason why I suggested this was a straightforward question. It's one thing if some part of the discussion gets complicated because people have different opinions about how and when, but the reluctance to directly answer the question is not unexpected.

I don't know how many people would remember certain discussions in which Christians would tacitly disqualify each other by separating those folks over there in order to avoid answering a question. And, sure, it's one thing if different churches look at their common label differently, but the Corpus Christi always dismembers itself like this. Very little actually unites the Corpus Christi, and a considerable amount done in its name is not actually Christian, and only nominally so. And, sure, the First Amendment can complicate the idea of formally disqualifying Christians from Christianity, but don't lose sight of the fact of fragmentation.

Per the question of Republicans and conservatives, sure, it should be easy enough to make the historical case if that case is so easily apparent. And presupposing against the solipsism that Republicans were no longer conservative when it became inconvenient to the beholder really ought not be any extraordinary constraint.

†​

The question of what Republicans should have done if they were actually conservative opens up myriad pathways; it can get complicated really fast. But there is also a fair question of when who knew—i.e., learned—what insofar as some old superstitions about how the economy works don't hold up to scrutiny. Living wages, for instance, in an economy dependent on consumer spending. Or government spending; what we couldn't afford at home we bought on credit, abroad, and the thing is, certain forms of domestic spending, even on credit, turn out to actually grow the economy. What "conservatism" would say in those alternative circumstances is unclear, but we can probably wonder about at least thirty years, if not more. At some point, the argument becomes utterly speculative.

Still, though, it should be easy enough to at least assert an historical case for when and how the GOP stopped being conservative. And toward that, the question of what they should have done is largely framed by the when and how.

What, then, of the possibility that the problem is that there is no case to make? As an absolute proposition, that seems impossible, but, sure, as a practical question, that might be where we're at.

†​

Consider Trump's conditions are not conservative (states' rights, &c.) according to the conservative pitch, but precisely conservative according to the conservative track record over the last fifty years, at least. If you want the complex formulation, it's like Buckley conservatism met the Southern Strategy, realized they were the same person, spent decades pretending otherwise, and if ever cornered will appeal to compassion as a split personality while fuming fury at any discussion of illness, disorder, disability, or even dysfunction.

(Hint: If we consider an American disabilities standard requiring "reasonable accommodation" of disability, what would be reasonable accommodation of antisocial or even delusional disorders?)​

The short form is the difference between the pitch and the result. It's kind of like the difference between what they say and what they do. It's one thing to pretend the majority of Trump voters have reasons other than supremacism, tyranny, crackpottery, and authoritarianism, but compared to those other reasons, the track record clearly favors dangerous, solipsistic crackpottery. Approximately speaking, supremacist bullyism is the durable appeal of American conservatism. Compared to the shiny pitch intended to depict a "reasonable viewpoint", e.g.

Conservatism, in the sense that seems to get it right more often than not, to me, has to do with fiscal conservatism, largely being responsible for your own outcomes, keeping taxes low so that it is possible to take care of yourself without relying on the state excessively. It is also about having government where necessary and having it no larger than necessary.

—the actual result is belligerent government, fiscal irresponsibility, and a whole lot of complaining about who should be thrown out of society.

We're actually to the point that a sitting Congressman↱ would call for the deportation of actual born Americans for the sake of enforcing conservative Christian politics.

It's like that↗ line↗: "This is how you end up with fascism." Only, let's be a little more particular: If, in Reagan's America, those would have been fighting words, I cannot describe to you how strange it would have been to argue, "This is how you end up deporting natural born American citizens for being Christians."

But here we are. If we compare the pitch to what they brought to bear, history is pretty clear about the difference between what they say and what they do.

If, as such, it should be easy enough to make the historical case, maybe it's actually kind of clear why it isn't.
____________________

Notes:

@RepMikeCollins. "The person giving this sermon should be added to the deportation list." X. 21 January 2025. X.com. 25 January 2025. status/1881765967338131546

 
Who cares what they call themselves?
Clearly, you do. Most conservatives have always been racist, misogynistic, bigots, its just now they have a President who is openly one as well, who encourages that behavior and wants them to be as cruel, hateful and violent as they want, without consequences. Conservatives have been fighting culture wars for decades, they could care less about governing the country for the benefit of the country.
What if they start calling themselves progressive? Would that make any difference?
Conservatives would have to grow a spine and be able to think before they call themselves that.
 
Narrative Context, &c.

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Sarah Longwell↱, publisher of The Bulwark, a conservative political commentary website, explains:

Because I was raised politically by institutional conservative organizations, I'm still, even now, amazed and disoriented by how thoroughly they've abandoned everything they once stood for. The intellectual dishonesty is breathtaking.

As I've said, before, this should be a fascinating discussion. There is actually a lot to discuss, but it's worth reflecting at least briefly on what passes for subtlety.

A question #nevertrump Republicans aren't thrilled to countenance has to do with what they will do when all of this is over. That the question presumes this rightist spiral ends is significant in its own context, but nevertrumpers like Bill Kristol (Bulwark) and David French (National Review, FIRE) were always reasonably content with, and would accept even more and greater, disparate impact, and for them it seems the real problem about the Trump experience and magatude are matters of form and etiquette.

For instance, Longwell's subsequent recollection↱ about how conservatives "liked due process", "and free speech", requires some delicately arranged caveats that barely withstand scrutiny, but even the most pompous of Buckleyites were aware that the power of the truth of their argument depended entirely on its integrity↗.

And this is the abandonment, the intellectual dishonesty, Longwell finds breathtaking and disorienting. At no point does she refuse the historical contiguity from conservatives of once upon a time. The difference she perceives is an apparent betrayal of a sales pitch; those more cynical toward American conservatives toss a coin—heads, well, they did, at least, used to offer lip service, tails, yeah, we kind of always knew this is where they were going with it.

And if, as the venture capital guy↱ responded, "Republicans today aren't conservatives," but reaches back to the period between Eisenhower and Reagan to mark the departure, we might wonder what a conservative actually is, or has to do with anything. Sen. Chris Murphy (D-CT) recently observed, "with the exception of maybe 20 Republicans in the Senate, the GOP inside Congress is done with democracy", and the circumstance results from conservative exhaustion vis à vis a living reality that informs so differently↗ than their superstitions require.
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Notes:

@atrupar. "Murphy: 'The vast majority of Republicans, their number one priority is Trump seizing power, and the Trump family and the MAGA universe holding power forever ... with the exception of maybe 20 Republicans in the Senate, the GOP inside Congress is done with democracy.'" X. 4 April 2025. X.com. 5 April 2025. status/1908313361189601463

@PaulJeffries. "Republicans today aren’t conservatives. They are reaction right populists. This is a very different outlook. But it’s not out of nowhere. Lee Atwater started leveraging that, and Karl Rove and Newt and many others aggressively pursued it." X. 1 April 2025. X.com. 5 April 2025. PaulJeffries/status/1907177354784649509

@SarahLongwell25. "Because I was raised politically by institutional conservative organizations, I'm still, even now, amazed and disoriented by how thoroughly they've abandoned everything they once stood for. The intellectual dishonesty is breathtaking." X. 1 April 2025. X.com. 5 April 2025. status/1907048378350854405

—————. "They liked due process for one thing! And free speech. And working with allies and standing up to dictators. And were anti-corruption. And pro-free markets. Small stuff." X. 1 April 2025. X.com. 5 April 2025. status/1907074105351750079

 
What They Vote For

There is sometimes some confusion about the idea of what Republican voters actually vote for. The underlying pretense is that they're good people who vote for good things, and somehow or another it's always somebody else's fault when the people Republicans vote for turn out to be the corrupt bigots anyone should have been able to see they are.

For instance, the Rolling Stone summary: "Rolling Stone reached out to all 53 GOP senators after the president said he didn't know whether he needs to honor the nation's founding document. None replied."

There really isn't anything surprising about this. American conservatives have long been corrupt, racist authoritarians just waiting for their chance to fulfill their fascist, hateful dreams.

†​

Now, I know a lot of people like to pretend both to be well informed and to have no clue what is going on, so here's the basic explanation:

It's a tired exercise to imagine how Republicans might react if Barack Obama or Joe Biden was guilty of any of the gaffes Donald Trump commits on a daily basis — but imagine for a second how conservatives would react if Obama or Biden had been asked during a high-profile interview whether they feel it's their duty as president to uphold the Constitution, and they responded, "I don't know."

Such is how Trump responded on Sunday when Kristen Welker of NBC News pressed him on his administration's refusal to bring Kilmar Abrego Garcia — a Maryland man the administration deported without due process — back from El Salvador, including after the Supreme Court ruled 9-0 that the administration must "facilitate" his return. Trump has largely tried to wash his hands of anything to do with the situation, repeatedly saying it's up to his lawyers, which is how he describes the Justice Department.

"Don't you need to uphold the Constitution of the United States, as president?" Welker asked Trump after he pleaded ignorance about whether everyone in America has a right to due process, a constitutional right.

"I don't know," Trump replied. "I have to respond by saying again that I have brilliant lawyers that work for me. They are going to obviously follow what the Supreme Court said. What you said is not what I heard the Supreme Court said. They have a different interpretation" ....

.... Republicans have largely avoided the issue. Rolling Stone reached out to all 53 Republican senators asking for comment and didn't receive a response from a single one of them.


(Bort↱)

There really isn't anything surprising about it, because this has long been one of those questions where some people just can't help themselves: Hatred, corruption, and lawlessness are what defines the character of American conservatives, and nothing good motivates their willing enablers.

Think of it like a long-known answer to a question, only ever held in doubt in deference to tradition, superstition, and emotion. And then start making excuses for them:

They're voting for jobs and economy and other priorities: No, they're not. If that's what they were doing, these last thirty years, they would have actually gotten some of what they were after.

But those condescending liberals and their paternalism force people to vote for right-wingers: No, that's just what supremacists say when they're upset that someone they don't like has human rights.

It's a policy argument: Well, sure, but if you've ever endured a theologian parsing the difference between surgery and torture, there shouldn't have been any question about why they would. It's the kind of distinction one might expect to encounter when delineating the boundaries of evil. But inasmuch as the policy argument is that Republicans don't like a policy outcome so they adopt (ratchet up) white supremacist and misogynist rhetoric and policy advocacy to make their totally nonsupremacist point about how unhappy they are about other policies, well, no, we don't believe them, and didn't believe them back then, and any pretense to the other was what Americans call "reasonable accommodation", and, sure, there's wicked irony, there¹, but if you're one of the people making excuses, it's been there for a while and you still haven't noticed. There's a reason why we don't believe you.​

Think of the dabblers who think they have some views that are right wing, but don't want to be seen as rightists: Their disagreement with what conservatives do isn't really about policy, but politesse. They want the outcomes, but without the adjectives. They don't really believe in due process, and haven't for decades, but the way the Trump administration goes about it makes it look like the liberals are right, and that's where they part ways with Trump. The nevertrump conservatives like Kristol, French, Sykes, &c., were always okay with the policies, but didn't like a politic that left them exposed to accusations of racism, misogyny, &c. And that's true of a lot of rightist sympathizers. It's why so many focus on complaining about complaint against supremacism. It's why the real problem, here, is the people who would criticize, and the real victims, here, are the totally notasupremacist↑ inflictors.

Forty years ago, conservatives still huffed about Miranda rights. Thing is, Miranda rights would not have been identified, codified, and named as they were if cops in Arizona hadn't tortured a confession out of an innocent man. And the whole time, what has conservatives upset isn't the torture of an innocent man, but that "criminals"—i.e., anyone police detain or arrest—have rights. So, these years later, the idea that Republican U.S. Senators refuse their oaths in order to subvert due process really ought not surprise anyone.

We look, then, to the voters who sent the lawless to Congress. This is what they wanted. This is what is important to them. This is what they vote for.

And they've been voting for it for over fifty years.
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Notes:

¹ e.g., It's a contiguous political heritage by which the people who think wheelchair ramps are a symbol of tyranny are actually the ones bringing fascism, and, sure we kind of knew, then, but political correctness demanded the general suppression and discouragement of such discourse.​

Bort, Ryan. "Republicans Silent as Trump Refuses to Commit to Upholding Constitution". Rolling Stone. 6 May 2025. RollingStone.com. 11 May 2025. https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...trump-refuses-commit-constitution-1235332711/

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Tom Tomorrow, This Modern World, 28 May 2018.
 
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