Religion and women.

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, Jan 12, 2021.

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  1. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Ok. This where you switch.
    Why would you ask me that?
    I already have an example that explains what zi mean. Use that one.

    I don’t have the time, or the desire to enter into this type of discussion. I’ve been down this road with you, and aside from the fact that it is super boring, you have no intention of engaging in any meaningful discussion.
     
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  3. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Likewise.
     
    dumbest man on earth likes this.
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  5. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Nope. By that definition a bicycle is a car - which obviously isn't true.

    I often use my car for business - transporting goods from point A to point B. I don't need the transportation; I just need to transport the goods. Does that mean it's not a car, since it is used for the purpose of carrying cargo and not people?

    Your definition of "car" needs some work. (So do the rest of your definitions of both sex and gender roles.)
    No, actually I said the exact opposite. Are you having trouble reading?
     
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  7. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Are Ford focuses and Bentleys, cars?

    Wow!!!
     
  8. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    You don’t have to.
    You can simply request that I don’t converse with you, I will be happy to comply.
    Unless you don’t want to view anything I write.
     
  9. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    Er..because I want to know your answer?

    I have had someone say to me they don't see god as a real thing just a way of providing a persona for " nature"... their view of the bible... it was just an early attempt at cosmology and to assemble some laws, like how to treat your slaves, not to murder, not to gather sticks on the Sabbath but folk thought they were inspired so they wrote something and due to political pressure various families would insist that their ancestors " book" be included in the book...anyways his view was it helps to have you think about things and treat it as no more than a collection of myths trying to establish some rules for the game.

    I think for some folk it does cause them to think for others the opposite is true.

    It is easy to understand why we have the old testament...the new testament I believe was written by a particular Roman family to help manage the Hebrews and later was used as a simple way to collect taxes and not need a huge military.

    And it certainly worked well that way.

    After many battles where the sides reached an agreement you find that the right to establish churches was high on the list..oh isn't that nice..yeh but the controller of the churches in a country had a ready made tax collection system..neat eh.

    For me after reading it cover to cover I felt I could understand the context for both the old testament and the new testament.

    I do think if you simplify the plot it becomes clear this collection of books most certainly was not inspired by any god.

    Just think..God created everything, was not happy with humans so killed them off all but eight, left the original sin problem unaddressed and then thought I know a sacrifice to me of me and I will split myself into god and a human ... sure very god like.

    It's a myth I just want to know if you use it to help thinking or you believe there is an actual god, er god, jesus and the holy ghost..oh and Mary...plus all the saints, angels etc

    Why don't you just give me an answer?

    And I don't want " why would I do that" crap.

    I could not understand it so I ask for another..is there another?

    Now you are lieing because you do not know my intention..do you..you have no mind reading powers..do you?


    I would be happy to discuss the history that shows there were multiple human gods pre Jesus and how their invention relied upon astrology..that is interesting and one can access plenty of evidence from ancient writings such that one realises yes there were many human gods just like Jesus ..there is a good case for going back to having a multitude of gods..there are plenty of them that's for sure...and this is fact and supported by real evidence.

    I would be happy to discuss domestic violence.

    Anything really..but you can see that I have the goods..evidence... and so you run off out of fear that I will point out your reality for what it is...

    You have some rather interesting views on women and given your professed belief that the bible is ok cause it has some good things about women and those good things seem just a little sexist to me..the question as to where you formed your opinions and under what influence would be something to discuss....that can wait for our discussion that you avoid...

    Anyways I will let you get back to your real world that you look at thru virtual reality Google's as I get back to mine that is what it is.

    Thank you for your time.

    Alex
     
  10. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Blown away by how poorly you read that reply?
     
  11. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Emotions are running high
     
  12. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    Well as you can only determine the state of your emotions and only guess as to the emotions of others I will assume that your words here refer to your emotions so my advice is to relax and realise it a matter of people just pointing out where you are wrong so there is no need to, as you say, get your emotions running high..you are just unfortunately wrong most of the time ..we still all like you...and for me I blame all your wrongness on christianity so we can blame the brain washings you have been victim to and hope and pray you get better...anyways just relax.
    Alex
     
  13. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    So, Alex, you state to Jan :
    Then you go on to state to Jan:
    So, it begs the question :
    Are you lieing, Alex, because you do not know Jans intention..do you..you have no mind reading powers..do you?

    Well, do you have mind reading powers, Alex?
     
  14. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, unintentional but I won't try and avoid what I have said and certainly won't try and make any excuses ..the best thing to do is admit you were wrong and do better next time.

    You are entirely correct I do not know Jans intention it was wrong for me to use words suggesting that I did know when obviously I don't.

    I do not have mind reading powers.

    What I should have said ....

    Anything really...but you can see that I have the goods..you run off but that is ok for if you stay I will continue to point to the research and all facts that show in general religion is suspected of contributing to a culture that has many males holding negative respect for women.

    You did well pointing that out and save me appearing badly...and I have no problem in saying thank you...I knew you were a good person.
    Sincerely thank you.
    Alex
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
  15. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    Fairly certain that that ship already sailed, Alex.
    I pointed it out afterwards...
    Not so sure that you should be thanking anyone, Alex...
    Although you probably should be apologizing to Jan, the object of your accusation when you stated : "Now you are lieing"...
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
  16. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    True but maybe some folk will see that when it is pointed out that I am wrong I don't argue and just conceed as a gentleman should ...well of course they will simply because I am the only one who does....apart from your yourself....you appologised unconditionally recognising that I was right remember...I will never forget it.

    HERE IT IS
    You said...
    I guess that I have no other choice than to apologize to you, Alex.
    Obviously, it was wrong of me to even begin to conclude anything at all about your Posts on this Forum based solely upon the content of your Posts on this Forum.
    So, again Alex, I have no other choice than to apologize.

    Alas, if you had only explained this to me about you previously, well...no, my ignorance is no excuse.

    I said
    ...for unlike all of you I am not judgemental

    You said.
    An admiral quality, Alex, and believe me, I am extremely impressed by your ability to determine that all of us are so judgemental without being in any way judgemental yourself.


    I said
    ..clearly you all have terrible flaws which I goes to reflect drama in your lives...the lieing usually means the actor has been lied to..the hater has had hate filled environments..I get all that...I can over look it for a while but the persistence certainly worries me.

    You said
    My apologies also for thinkng that I could exchange missives with someone of your status while clearly having such terrible flaws in my life/character/personality.
    I will no longer persist in making you overlook my terrible flaws...can we not hope that that alleviates your worries?​


    I NOW SAY....
    I see an unconditional apology as something only a gentleman would do.


    You did point it out afterwards now that I think it thru.

    Why not as you are clearly doing your best to help.

    You mean this???

    I feel rather priveledged to have you helping me out like you are doing ..now that I know you are on the job I may just slip a few things in simply to see if you can spot them.
    Alex
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
  17. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    I liked the part where you would not even make any excuses for being wrong...
    Alex
     
  18. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    dis•in•gen•u•ous
     
  19. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed. You are being emotional and irrational.
     
  20. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    You are such a kind and considerate person DMOE...here is me feeling bad about second guessing what people are thinking and here you go doing it yourself obviously to make me feel better and not alone in dealing with the problem you reported earlier..do you keep saying that word to make me realise you too can be guilty of assumption as obviously to make such a claim you would need to know what I am thinking otherwise you won't know what is dis•in•gen•u•ous will you?

    With out knowing what I am thinking you cant say if I am genuine or if you are not genuine.

    Anyways sincerely thank you for your little jabs as it is really nice having something to reply to and have some fun with an old bloke like myself.

    We should be keeping score you got me once but I have got you so many times that I have lost count...less see..got you 're offering consideration for old people...and I got you with your incorrect allegation with Jan ...I would have thought you would appologise having seen how it's done....got you here nicely..less call it 3 to me 1 to you...

    Still this is taking away from the research and the links which make the case rather well that the church says bad things about women, that Christian men are more likely to be guilty of domestic violence and that advising victims to pray to God that the violence will stop or for god to give them strength is just terrible advice. And what about Micks link..how damning on the church...You know it really is funny, as in evil and wrong, that no one comments it seems to me...what have I missed, that no one will look at the links it seems...did you look..you need to say as I am not a mind reader you know. Jan has already determined it's all lies without looking...that's wrong isn't it?

    Actually I think I will bring in some more videos and more links to provide more evidence that the church give out a terrible message for women by treating them as less than men.


    Does the church wedding ceremony still require that the women love honour and obey the husband...who can answer that? If it's changed when did it change..could only be recently...fancy calling upon someone to love, honour and obey...in my first marriage I specifically told the minister that I did not want him to say " obey" ...ahead of my time or what?

    What gets me is how any woman could go to church when they are the objects of disrespect...brain washed I suspect..the need to belong to a group... that's it I suspect...and that need enables them all to smile and ignored the turds in the pool...at one stage of my life ( 4 to 7) I lived in the residence behind the court house and that was next door to the police station....I can remember in the police station hearing the sergeant say to the constable about the drunk in the lock up " he only knocks her around when he has been drinking otherwise he is a really nice bloke..you will see him next door tomorrow with the wife and his girls the perfect family"...next door was the Catholic church...
    Or at the next town a women laid down on the railway tracks...village gossip was she could not take the beatings any more from her church loving husband...these things happen...but as we know god works in mysterious ways..no he does not cause it is just a big big lie that is accepted because the victims are brain washed.

    Now there are a few things above which at first you will think you can nail me on but I warn you there may be traps that sets you up for me making a smart come back...then there may be nothing I could be pulling your legs.

    Alex

     
  21. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Here is an article that as Jan would say seeks to smear christianity but it is well worth reading.https://christiansforsocialaction.org/resource/churchs-oppression-women/

    Note who the author is ..his background
    Women
    • 23 October 2018
    • By Stephen Mattson

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    The Great Reckoning: Surviving a Christianity That Looks Nothing Like Christ by Stephen Mattson / Herald Press 2018
    American Christianity has been a horrible place for women. It ignores them, abuses them, assaults them, objectifies them, oppresses them, and then attempts to theologically rationalize it all as being “Biblical” and “holy.” The Church has been a willing co-conspirator in the widespread affliction of women.

    Regarding the most important issues related to family, education, careers, healthcare, finances, politics, safety, and even spirituality, Christianity has continuously prioritized men at the expense of women. To question this status quo is to be branded a “troublemaker,” “heretic,” and other terms too demeaning to even utter. This toxic religiosity, often branded as “Christianity,” has socialized its adherents to dehumanize women related to every aspect of our society.

    Christianity has a history of manipulating the Bible to reinforce patriarchy, in which men are seen as spiritual leaders and women are to submit to their authority. This has resulted in the smothering of women’s gifts of pastoral leadership and ministry. Women are intentionally excluded from roles of authority, and their truth, wisdom, and experiences have been unfairly dismissed.

    Christianity has a history of manipulating the Bible to reinforce patriarchy.

    Christendom is still predominantly built on male-dominated authority structures. Only nine percent of Protestant American pastors are women. The overall ratio of women spiritual leaders is probably far less when you consider that the Roman Catholic Church has yet to officially ordain women. None of this takes into consideration the countless “pastors’ wives” who work (often in addition to their paid professions) in ministry roles yet receive little to no compensation.

    Women make up about 50 percent of all medical school graduates, 60 percent of all accountants, and 67 percent of all psychologists. Yet a significant portion of Christian churches and denominations still forbid them from becoming pastors and ordained ministers, banning them from various positions of leadership.

    Furthermore, Christendom has remained regrettably silent in the face of the epidemic of harassment, abuse, and violence against women. One in three women has been a victim of domestic violence. One in six women will, sometime during her life, be the victim of rape or attempted rape. More than half of all women have been sexually harassed at their workplace, and a staggering 87 percent of women between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five say they’ve experienced some form of harassment.

    Christian leaders, on the whole, have failed to address the abuse and assault experienced by more than half of all Christian believers. When was the last time your congregation dedicated a sermon or service to sexual harassment, assault, or abuse? If you are fortunate enough to have experienced such a service, you’re the exception to the rule. Despite attending all sorts of churches within a variety of denominations and despite sitting through countless sermons, I have not once heard violence against women addressed in any significant capacity. I’ve heard homilies on the Leviathan, the Nephilim, and the dimensions of Noah’s ark; I have not heard a single sermon confronting a problem that affects nearly every woman in every congregation, and around the world.

    When was the last time your congregation dedicated a sermon or service to sexual harassment, assault, or abuse?

    Instead of taking a proactive approach against sexual assault, harassment, and abuse, Christianity has been complicit in its spread. Rachael Denhollander, the first women to accuse USA Gymnastics team doctor Larry Nassar of sexual abuse, had this to say about churches:

    Church is one of the least safe places to acknowledge abuse because the way it is counseled is, more often than not, damaging to the victim. There is an abhorrent lack of knowledge for the damage and devastation that sexual assault brings. It is with deep regret that I say the church is one of the worst places to go for help. That’s a hard thing to say, because I am a very conservative evangelical, but that is the truth. There are very, very few who have ever found true help in the church.

    Rather than address this widespread crisis, Christendom has created toxic and unregulated environments in which predatory men (and women) often face no consequences for their actions. Rather than publicly denouncing the perpetrators, large contingents of Christians actually support them, especially if they share similar political and spiritual beliefs. Denhollander says she found little support when she spoke out against her abuser: “Advocacy for sexual assault victims, something I cherished, cost me my church and our closest friends three weeks before I filed my police report,” she said. “I was left alone and isolated. And far worse, it was impacted because when I came out, my sexual assault was wielded like a weapon against me.”

    The false spiritual premises of patriarchy provide cover for such actions by abusers and the churches that support them. A deep-rooted misogyny, in which women are emotionally, spiritually, and physically oppressed, lies at the center of much of evangelicalism today. Denhollander’s testimony underscores how presidential candidate Donald Trump could still receive 81 percent of the white evangelical vote, even after voters learned of his ongoing comments about women that are mostly unfit to print.

    Instead of believing survivors, Christians blame them. Instead of rebuking the perpetrator, Christians shame those who were assaulted. If sexual abuse or assault happens within a church or involves a parishioner, many faith communities won’t notify law enforcement but rather try to deal with the issue in-house, often under the pretense of “spiritual healing” or “accountability” or “reconciliation.” This leaves victims without justice and culprits without punishment. Saying “I’m sorry” without any reparations is hollow.

    Given all these actions against women’s gifts and bodies, the church must be held to account. The church must do better. It is incumbent on the church to attend to the words and actions of Jesus, who treated women as equals, with the respect and love deserved by divine image-bearers of God.

    It is incumbent on the church to attend to the words and actions of Jesus, who treated women as equals.

    In the immortal words of Dorothy Sayers:

    Perhaps it is no wonder that the women were first at the Cradle and last at the Cross. They had never known a man like this Man—there never has been such another. A prophet and teacher who never nagged at them, never flattered or coaxed or patronized; who never made arch jokes about them, never treated them either as ‘The women, God help us!’ or ‘The ladies, God bless them!’; who rebuked without querulousness and praised without condescension; who took their questions and arguments seriously; who never mapped out their sphere for them, never urged them to be feminine or jeered at them for being female; who had no axe to grind and no uneasy male dignity to defend; who took them as he found them and was completely unself-conscious.

    Stephen Mattson is a graduate of Moody Bible Institute and is currently on staff at the University of Northwestern, St. Paul. This edited excerpt is taken from his book The Great Reckoning: Surviving a Christianity That Looks Nothing Like Christ (Herald Press, 2018). All rights reserved. Used with permission. Follow Stephen on Twitter.
     
  22. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Its gone past lying.
    It is total denial.
    I try to reason with him, then he just goes into his tirades. No reasoning, just pure accusation.
    Typical snowflake behaviour.

    Years ago, people used to actually discuss things here. Now it’s full of snowflakes. If they don’t like what you’re saying, they simply cancel you. A complete lack of integrity.
    Paaaaaaaaaathetic!!!!

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  23. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    That’s a pathetic accusation.
     
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