Rape Academy

DaveC426913 said:
The violence that comes from a rapey culture. Til rape and violent sexual assault is treated like murder or thereabouts, it's not over-the-top to punish public sexism from celebrities who set the example for others.
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Yeah. I think that most reasonable people--if they possess any measure of self-awareness--can somewhat comprehend how a person might come to commit second-degree murder. It should not go unpunished, of course, but it hardly makes a person irredeemable or a sociopath. Rape, on the other hand, is a malicious and antisocial act. Most, I think, can not comprehend such.

And yet, the penalties for rape are generally far less severe, there are statutes of limitations and such, and it is generally treated as a less serious offense, That needs to change.
 
parmalee said:
And yet, the penalties for rape are generally far less severe, there are statutes of limitations and such, and it is generally treated as a less serious offense, That needs to change.
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One thing I found adds complexity to this whole issue is hearing women, especially from some feminist perspectives, say that we shouldn't view rape as on a par with murder. If I'm following their argument, it is that this then follows an ancient template of patriarchies which deemed that a woman's value as a human life rested on her purity. Rape was like a death, because it ended a woman's social existence as a safe and "unsullied" conveyor of man's bloodline.

Now, okay, I can hear many people groaning. I think their point is not that rape isn't a heinous act of violence but that it's awfulness now has roots in a quite regressive and sexist lineage of patriarchy. IOW, part of a woman's sense of defilement actually arose from a male valuation imposed on them.

Obviously we would need to get further past those archaic influences and have a consistent view on forcible sexual penetration of anyone. In prison, men are victimized in this way, and a lot of society looks the other way. What such first degree rape takes from a person is not their life, and it may vary somewhat depending on that person's psychological makeup, but it does steal something from their life and calls for severe penalties. Murder is a moment of pain and then you're absent from the world, rape can mean decades of living in a world that's much uglier and more painful for you. So yeah, you're right, it calls for more than feather light sentences.
 
DaveC426913 said:
The violence that comes from a rapey culture. Til rape and violent sexual assault is treated like murder or thereabouts, it's not over-the-top to punish public sexism from celebrities who set the example for others.
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This being a science forum, I would like to see social sciences firm up the linkages between sexism, titty-grabbing stuff, etc. and individuals who are influenced by that in the direction of sexual violence. If people can see those trails of toxic breadcrumbs, I think it might help dismantle some of the subculture that preaches rapey garbage like "a man's right to be sexually served by women." This also might have linkages to white supremacy and nationalism, where what starts out as a demand for "rights" turns into a withdrawal of rights from others.
 
Pinball1970 said:
Weird. I never had that training in the 70s when I was growing up.
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Right. But the question was "what can we do?" (to reduce the problems of rape culture) That's one thing.
Does it have to be explained to a 13 year old who is just starting calculus, that forcing someone against will to do something is not right?
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Earlier than that. It starts with "don't touch someone else without their permission" "don't scare then even if you think it's funny" "don't grab them hard because you might hurt them even if you are playing a game" etc. (And yes, that happens at 13 years old - and even earlier.)

All that isn't very dangerous. But it can lay the groundwork for worse nonconsensual behavior later.

There is no rape culture
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Oh there definitely is, in a great many places. Consider the manosphere created by Andrew Tate, or the 4chan incel community. Consider the support for Donald Trump, a rapist.
 
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DaveC426913 said:
I'm getting mixed messages from you.

OK. I see you corrected it.
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Just say what you want Dave, don't do that with me please.

SOCIETY, let's call them SKY, decided it was not acceptable to point he lost his job which was bullshit. SKY basically shit themselves because they didn't want to get slammed for not reacting hard enough, as this was caught "off microphone" and was all over social media, so the guy lost his job.
That was wrong, he can and SHOULD say what he thinks about football because he knows the game inside and out.
If he said it today he would be LESS right why? Because more women now are involved in the game BUT statistically he is still correct.
 
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parmalee said:
elected a serial rapist as president--twice
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Yeah that was a shock. People in the UK are still trying to work out why he isn't in prison.
We don't get it, I will give you that.

Does that make the US a rape culture? I hope not, perhaps that part of the electorate that voted for him thought some or all of it was lies, a leftist smear campaign? As per the Biden win, the Qanon brigade.
Don't ask me to explain the American psyche.
 
Pinball1970 said:
Just say what you want Dave, don't do that with me please.

SOCIETY, let's call them SKY, decided it was not acceptable to point he lost his job which was bullshit. SKY basically shit themselves because they didn't want to get slammed for not reacting hard enough, as this was caught "off microphone" and was all over social media, so the guy lost his job.
That was wrong, he can and SHOULD say what he thinks about football because he knows the game inside and out.
If he said it today he would be LESS right why? Because more women now are involved in the game BUT statistically he is still correct.
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There were multiple things they said:
First, derogatory about a female official. This would have been someone who would only have been appointed if they had passed all the tests, qualifications etc. But, to them, a female official can't know the offside rule.
Second, derogatory comments about West Ham vice-chairman Karen Brady: "The game's gone mad. See charming Karren Brady this morning complaining about sexism? Yeah. Do me a favour, love."

Keys and Gray apologised to both women for these comments, and had that been it, Sky would likely have taken no further action beyond the warning they received for them. But there was other stuff that came to light, including off-air sexist comments about another presenter.

Already being on a warning, Sky had little alternative than to sack him.

Imo it was fully justified. Gray and Keys were sexist dinosaurs at a time Sky wanted to evolve. There was no place for them in the ethos that Sky wanted to portray.

So, to be clear: they were not saying what they wanted to about football, but about women, simply for being women. Being a qualified official didn't matter to them: if you were a woman you don't know the offside rule. Etc.

It wasn't OTT imo, but rather setting an example they wanted others to follow. It was "laddish" culture, and Sky wanted it gone.
 
Sarkus said:
There were multiple things they said:
First, derogatory about a female official. This would have been someone who would only have been appointed if they had passed all the tests, qualifications etc. But, to them, a female official can't know the offside rule.
Second, derogatory comments about West Ham vice-chairman Karen Brady: "The game's gone mad. See charming Karren Brady this morning complaining about sexism? Yeah. Do me a favour, love."

Keys and Gray apologised to both women for these comments, and had that been it, Sky would likely have taken no further action beyond the warning they received for them. But there was other stuff that came to light, including off-air sexist comments about another presenter.

Already being on a warning, Sky had little alternative than to sack him.

Imo it was fully justified. Gray and Keys were sexist dinosaurs at a time Sky wanted to evolve. There was no place for them in the ethos that Sky wanted to portray.

So, to be clear: they were not saying what they wanted to about football, but about women, simply for being women. Being a qualified official didn't matter to them: if you were a woman you don't know the offside rule. Etc.

It wasn't OTT imo, but rather setting an example they wanted others to follow. It was "laddish" culture, and Sky wanted it gone.
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Right ok. I just read some of the other stuff he said. Not good. Very bad in fact.

That kind of blows my point out of the water so speak then.
 
Ok so rape culture. Having picked on a very bad example I will regroup, eat a little humble pie and start again.

Do we have a rape culture in the UK, Andy Gray aside? I would still say no because that means we have a society that encourages or fosters sexual abuse including rape and I don't recognise that here.
Do we have a sexist society is a bigger question, simple answer yes but that is the simple answer.
I think there is malignant and benign forms and lots of room reading to be had.
 
Pinball1970 said:
Just say what you want Dave, don't do that with me please.
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What? No. I addressed something you said, and then a few posts later I saw that you corrected it yourself. I can't delete messages, so I just crossed it all out.


Pinball1970 said:
SOCIETY, let's call them SKY, decided it was not acceptable to point he lost his job which was bullshit. SKY basically shit themselves because they didn't want to get slammed for not reacting hard enough, as this was caught "off microphone" and was all over social media, so the guy lost his job.
That was wrong, he can and SHOULD say what he thinks about football because he knows the game inside and out.
If he said it today he would be LESS right why? Because more women now are involved in the game BUT statistically he is still correct.
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I don't know why you say "if he said it today it would be less right."

It was sexist then and it's sexist now. And we want to stamp out rampant sexism, especially in the media, where it has wide reach and influence.
 
Pinball1970 said:
We just need to decide where those lines are drawn then and which books to start burning. Obviously Ian Fleming is out, a bit rapey, who next?
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Straw man.

The corollary of your argument there is "Societally, we need to continue to condone rape or we will start to see the erosion of good fiction."

That's not what you meant is it?
 
Pinball1970 said:
Do we have a rape culture in the UK, Andy Gray aside? I would still say no because that means we have a society that encourages or fosters sexual abuse including rape and I don't recognise that here.
Do we have a sexist society is a bigger question, simple answer yes but that is the simple answer.
I think there is malignant and benign forms and lots of room reading to be had.
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There is very little distinction between sexist culture and rape culture. Society has come to recognize that most of sexism revolves around disempowering women and ulitmately controling them, including treating them as sex objects to be used.

"Sexism" was too sanitized a term for what it is; "rape culture" hits it where it lives.


Consider a spurious, made up analogy: the crime of "lockpicking" sounds a lot more sanitized than "home invasion". The former sounds like a crime of mischief; the latter calls out the progression to bodily harm - which is the real crime.
 
Pinball1970 said:
The corollary of your argument there is "Societally, we need to continue to condone rape or we will start to see the erosion of good fiction."
That's not what you meant is it?
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Obviously not.
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And yet, it's pretty much what you said. We shouldn't come down on sexism because it would lead to burning books. Supporting sexism protects books.

Doesn't sound so great, does it?




Pinball1970 said:
One minute I am saying women don't get the offside rule, then I find myself raping the next door neighbour?
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See, that's the thing. You're taking this personally. As if you are being accused of sexally assaulting women.

We know you're not. You've established you're not part of the problem. We're simply asking you to join in the solution.


I can't really argue this with you as long as you are taking everything as a personal attack. It's not about you.
 
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