Rape Academy

[TheVat]

I think there's two different things we are talking about here.

One is a lack of consent culture, which is not synonymous with rape culture, but lives in the same space. Yes that's a big problem.

The second is flirting/being inappropriate/catcalling. And yes that can absolutely be a problem in the absence of consent. But again that's a consent problem, not "romantic paralysis."

For a concrete example, several years back we were trapped at Burning Man during one of the floods, and we had nothing to do. So we all sat in front of our camp and catcalled all the people who walked by. Because some people hate that, we had someone at the beginning of the street to ask them if they were OK being catcalled. 90% said "sure" and often laughed at the combination of terrible/trashy/nerdy/awkward catcalls we came up with. 10% said "hell no" and we didn't say anything to them. Seemed to work well.

So those millennials can be super respectful of boundaries and still end up with a lot of romantic partners. "Personal boundary" doesn't mean "don't ever go beyond this point" - it means "check first."

I agree with all that, so I guess I was doing a bit of sidebar on the reticence of millennials. For sure, I don't think we would want "take some emotional risks," to be translated in some young fellow's brain as "go grab someone's ass to show you care." So more specific guidelines on consent, boundaries, and catcalling (sounds fun, never been to BM) are something people need to work out. And yes, some millennials are doing fine on the romantic front - I am by no means making a blanket statement. (and some of that would file under the different issue of social media and its more negative effects on people getting out and meeting FTF (or PTV, as the case may be).

 

[TheVat]

Then again I never had, "never set fire to someone lessons," either. Believe it or not kids know right from wrong at a very early age, we tell them. We do not have to be that explicit about causing harm, pain, fear because they experience it themselves and know it is not pleasant.

I suppose this touches on situations where we start out with a moral compass and then some sort of subculture skews that? Probably young children in 1930s Germany knew one shouldn't shut people in poison gas shower rooms and then incinerate them. That required a reprogramming process to override their early moral compass and empathy.

I think that relates to Dave's comment about how we (well, baby boomers, anyway) as boys and youth are taught to be persistent. Some pushed that idea more than others, and a few to extremes which could potentially be rape-y. I think my mates mostly saw the "don't take no for an answer," as somewhat bogus. A hard "no" is usually fairly easy to detect (versus, say, "Well, I can't this weekend," which when I was young was generally seen as a little nudge to keep trying for a bit.)

 

[exchemist]

There is no rape culture, it is against the law to rape in the UK, Canada too?

Not now I agree, but have you watched early James Bond movies recently? Some of them are pretty rapey by modern standards. But none of us who watched them when they came out were shocked at the time. It is only in retrospect that they seem dodgy. So evidently there was a culture of strong men overpowering the resistance of women in a semi-violent, rapish-seduction routine. No means yes etc. This was as recently as the 1960s.

I would bet that while us metropolitan chaps have moved on a lot since then, there may well be areas that have been slower to become enlightened, maybe 20-30 years behind in attitudes. And now of course we have this horrible on line phenomenon of the Tate bros and so forth, dragging certain a segment of the young male population back to the Dark Ages.

So culturally I don’t think it’s over, regardless of the law.

 

[DaveC426913]

There is no rape culture, it is against the law to rape in the UK, Canada too?

This seems a simplistic response. Do you think laws control how people behave?

This kind of thing (as just one spurious example of an entire culture) promotes sexism, and the objectification of women:


We have produced a society where it is normal for men to make sexual innuendo and otherwise treat women as sex objects and second-class citizens. It is ingrained throughout our society, not just in sexist cartoons of yore.

 

[DaveC426913]

... early James Bond movies recently? Some of them are pretty rapey by modern standards.

A better example, yes. But we don't have to go back that far.

I think the 2018 case of Christine Blasey Ford and Brett Kavanaugh tipped me over the edge. We watched in stunned disbelief as they just swept away her allegations of sexual assault, and it appeared quite obvious it was due to his power and influence.

 

[Pinball1970]

Promotes women as sex objects and second-class

Bullshit this isn't the 70s. Sky commentator Andy Gray made a supposed sexist comment about women, he very quickly and very publicly lost his job.
It was an absolutely OTT reaction and should never have lost his job but it was off camera so he got pulverised.

So even making a funny and totally harmless joke about women was NOT acceptable in 2011, let alone sexual aggression, rape.

 

[Pinball1970]

watched early James Bond movies recently

You mean a made up book and film for entertainment? Personally I like Dexter, he's not rapey but he does give off psychopath serial killer vibes. Luckily it's made up for TV and entertainment so I don't serial kill in homage to that either.

 

[TheVat]

You mean a made up book and film for entertainment? Personally I like Dexter, he's not rapey but he does give off psychopath serial killer vibes. Luckily it's made up for TV and entertainment so I don't serial kill in homage to that either.

This seems like an analogy that's comparing soured milk to strychnine juice. 98% of humans (i.e. nonpsychos) probably understand that it's wrong to serial kill or set people on fire. Sexist/innuendo behavior in a film or other media is a bit more grey area than that, and so more people might be susceptible to emulate it if the protagonist is shown as relatable and attractive.

That said, I have noticed a lot more romantic scenes where a guy says "I'm going to kiss you now, if that's okay," and then the gal says, pretty often, okay. Often it's a nice guy character, what you might call a Hugh Grant role, or in the US a Bill Pullman role back when they were young enough to play romantic leads. (Ryan Reynolds seems to have taken that torch in recent films) Or the female is the more aggressive, especially if she's a sort of empowered "riot grrrl" type.

 

[DaveC426913]

Bullshit this isn't the 70s. Sky commentator Andy Gray made a supposed sexist comment about women, he very quickly and very publicly lost his job.
It was an absolutely OTT reaction and should never have lost his job but it was off camera so he got pulverised.

I'm confused. You say it was over the top and he should not have lost his job, but then you say it was not acceptable. Which is it?

So even making a funny and totally harmless joke about women was NOT acceptable in 2011, let alone sexual aggression, rape.

It's obviously acceptable by the people who do it. Some people in sensitive jobs do suffer consequences. Are you telling me its been abolished?

 

[exchemist]

You mean a made up book and film for entertainment? Personally I like Dexter, he's not rapey but he does give off psychopath serial killer vibes. Luckily it's made up for TV and entertainment so I don't serial kill in homage to that either.

Come on, you are being disingenuous. The fact they were "made up" is neither here nor there. The point is that the sexual mores depicted in those films were not thought objectionable or even off-colour at the time, but merely a bit risqué.

Bond was intended to come over as a man for men to emulate or aspire to being, and for women to imagine being bedded by. And of course Connery was fabulous in the role. But some of the scenes (I remember especially Pussy Galore in the hay with Bond in Goldfinger, or the physio woman in Thunderball) were pretty close to a glorification of sexual coercion.

 

[Pinball1970]

. Sexist/innuendo behavior in a film or other media is a bit more grey area than that

Yeah people use sexist and sexual themes directly and via innuendo in conversation including women ALL THE TIME. Like every other subject under the sun including love, relationships, babies, science research, animal research, religion, cancer, abortion, war, politics, one has to read the room. It's all part of growing up and finding out about societal norms.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in saying a woman has a beautiful body in conversation. For instance.

Case in point, I have been training my arse off and all the girls have commented how good I am looking. That's great, only it's not, by "great," they mean, "thin," and that is what I am trying to avoid.

Whilst explaining this I referenced the guy who plays "Reacher," Alan Ritchson who physique is simply put phenomenal. Very low body fat, small waist and carrying a lot of beef. Fantastic. I want more of that.
One of them asked if i was gay.
I was surprised as she has known me for 5 years.
Why did she ask? Because she wanted to know, that's big news I suppose.
One of the other girls said, "you did sound enthusiastic about his body."
I am! I want some of it, about 15 lbs will do, I'm not greedy.

So, is that sexist? Inappropriate? No, I am outnumbered and all the women like a bit of ribbing at lunch.
If I was 18? Inappropriate.
If they didn't know me very well? Inappropriate.

They read the room.

 

[Pinball1970]

I'm confused. You say it was over the top and he should not have lost his job, but then you say it was not acceptable. Which is it?

I didn't say it was unacceptable.

 

[Pinball1970]

This seems like an analogy that's comparing soured milk to strychnine juice. 98% of humans (i.e. nonpsychos) probably understand that it's wrong to serial kill or set people on fire. Sexist/innuendo behavior in a film or other media is a bit more grey area than that, and so more people might be susceptible to emulate it if the protagonist is shown as relatable and attractive.

That said, I have noticed a lot more romantic scenes where a guy says "I'm going to kiss you now, if that's okay," and then the gal says, pretty often, okay. Often it's a nice guy character, what you might call a Hugh Grant role, or in the US a Bill Pullman role back when they were young enough to play romantic leads. (Ryan Reynolds seems to have taken that torch in recent films) Or the female is the more aggressive, especially if she's a sort of empowered "riot grrrl" type.

Both films both made up, that's the point. Dexter, James Bond, Gregory House, Terminator (Arnie) all great characters and I know all of them are just made up.

Joey from friends has sex with lots of women his line is "how you doing?"
I like Joey, I like friends.
However, it's made up so I won't try and get a job being chandler, get a girl being Joey or write a paper on sedimentary flow rates by being Ross because he is not a real PhD Palaeontologist.

 

[Pinball1970]

Bond was intended to come over as a man for men to emulate or aspire to being

He was also an international spy who ran around killing bad guys and saving the world.
As a kid, I realised this was detached from reality and made up like Bruce Lee, Dracula, King Kong and the carry on team.

 

[Pinball1970]

it was not acceptable.

I re-read it. Yeah it was not acceptable and was enough to lose your job, ACCORDING TO SKY. I say, ME now and then that was stupid OTT bullshit.

Women did not know the offside rule do you know why? The offside rule is known to people who play football and have played a long time, the rules have changed many times. Men played footy women didn't, that was 15 years ago when womens football was shit, no one watched it and that was the case in the UK.

Now it's popular with men and women and perhaps people would not be so sensitive about a comment like that.
You would have to ask them.
Perhaps they would say, "England women won the Euros, what about you? How did you do?"
You know give a little back rather than simply sacking the guy?

 

[Pinball1970]

Are you telling me its been abolished?

Has what been abolished? Sexism?

 

[DaveC426913]

I didn't say it was unacceptable.

I'm getting mixed messages from you.

So even making a funny and totally harmless joke about women was NOT acceptable in 2011, let alone sexual aggression, rape.

OK. I see you corrected it.

 

[parmalee]

Bullshit this isn't the 70s. Sky commentator Andy Gray made a supposed sexist comment about women, he very quickly and very publicly lost his job.
It was an absolutely OTT reaction and should never have lost his job but it was off camera so he got pulverised.

So even making a funny and totally harmless joke about women was NOT acceptable in 2011, let alone sexual aggression, rape.

Yet in the US, 70-odd million people, most knowingly (as established my numerous polls), elected a serial rapist as president--twice! Further, this same "person" has filled his administration with a staggering number of individuals with documented histories of rape, sexual assault, stalking, domestic violence, etc. Has this in any way affected his level of support? Not significantly. Even further, with the still incomplete (we've got less than half, and heavily redacted where it's not supposed to be redacted) Epstein files, we've learned that, in all likelihood--as per preponderance of evidence, even with said illegal redactions--this same person is almost certainly a child rapist and likely co-conspirator in human trafficking operations--as are many within and/or with close ties to this administration. Has this swayed the support of a significant number of supporters? Nope.

And yet even further, when said supporters are queried on what "good things" the Child Rapist in Chief has accomplished, they overwhelmingly seem to struggle with naming even on single thing--see, for instance, all the times that Seattle has been queried on such and failed to cite a single "good thing". So what is it that they like about this guy? Since they can't seem to tell us, we can only speculate. Undoubtedly, there's the strongman aspect: the ethnic cleansing and disappearing of "illegals", the murders of fisherman, the resolute support for genocide in Gaza (and elsewhere), etc. Also maybe this alleged "charisma" we he seemingly possesses. But also, most definitely, the rampant misogyny, racism, etc.

 

[DaveC426913]

I re-read it. Yeah it was not acceptable and was enough to lose your job, ACCORDING TO SKY. I say, ME now and then that was stupid OTT bullshit.

I'll say it's over the top once sexual assault and rape are treated as heinous crimes that get minimum 10 year sentences, not 2 years parole, as happens now - and when it is punished enough that the whole world finds it evil.

Til then, yeah, the guy lost his job. Set an example.

 

[DaveC426913]

Has what been abolished? Sexism?

The violence that comes from a rapey culture. Til rape and violent sexual assault is treated like murder or thereabouts, it's not over-the-top to punish public sexism from celebrities who set the example for others.