Pinball1970
Valued Senior Member
I think we can agree that is an outlier.
Rape Academy
- Thread starter DaveC426913
- Start date
Pinball1970
Valued Senior Member
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
I don't see it that way. One third of all women report having suffered sexual abuse. And that's only the ones who reported it.
It may be an extreme on the scale of depravity, but it's not an outlier in terms of occurrence of men abusing women.
The "not all men" argument is an attempt to protect our personal egos. I know I'm not an abuser and you know you're not an abuser, but "not all men" is a subtle way of saying "that's somebody else's problem". We've got to own it.
Pinball1970
Valued Senior Member
I'm not sure what "we've got to own it," means, what do you suggest? Say that men are horrible? Yeah, some of them. People can be horrible, we try and find the good ones in life to make connections with, make laws to catch the bad ones and keep them away from children.
Not all men are child abusers, bank robbers and murderers, that is a fact and absolutely it is someone else's problem. Unless my son ends up in prison then it's my problem and you can point the finger.
I will vote for guys that put policies in place to lock those people up.
Pinball1970
Valued Senior Member
I'm not into self flagellation, I did enough of that as a Catholic. No apologies for sin, that goes for Adam, slave owners, the cotton trade, I'm a Mancunian and any other miscreant, low life or psycho.
I think it's worse than that. One third of women have experienced rape or attempted rape, and around 50% have experienced some form of sexual assault in the studies I've seen.
And I think that's low. A good friend of mine was raped a long time ago and waited ~25 years to tell anyone. When she told me I spoke to several other women about it (I was still processing it.) And after I told them, there was always a long pause. And in half of those cases, they would then tell me about their rape. Two of them had never told anyone before.
And I fear that the long pause was them thinking whether or not they trusted me enough to tell them about their rape - and some didn't.
Pinball1970
Valued Senior Member
Not easy I've been there and it can destroy a relationship in a heart beat.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
I mean that this:
is not an excuse for us men to say:
I think it is not enough to wait for people to do crimes and then lock them up. We need a proactive approach to how children are being raised in the first place.
Pinball1970
Valued Senior Member
Yeah we do that already, parenting, school, and we have developed laws in a civilised society.
It is against the law to rape, abuse, murder.
We have classes for kids about strangers, government education programs, community groups watch, neighbourhood watch, support groups, AA, NA, halfway houses, prisons, secure accommodation, gated accommodation.
What else do you suggest? Vigilante groups?
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
And yet, we still have widespread rape culture.
What I suggest is that each and every man - you, me and everybody else - take it upon themselves to fight rape culture and male privilege wherever we find it.
We don't really have to go into the weeds here and now. My point here is simply that I do not accept "not all men" as an excuse, and I do not accept that other men committing sexist aggression (including things as simple as office innuendo and lascivious flirting, for example) is not a "somebody else's" problem.
TheVat
Valued Senior Member
I think the middle path here is being proactive (as, per Dave, with children/youth), speaking up against harassment and such in the workplace, and also not interpreting gentle flirting between single adults (testing a possible chemistry, e.g.) as necessarily an aggression. I mean, quick show of hands, how many of us (or our children) would exist in a flirtation-free world? And yes, we can certainly stand against flirting when it's between staff with uneven status/power balance or when one party has said knock that off. Sometimes just context can tell us it's not cool to flirt, and we can all support detoxing the Net and sharing positive experiences - and deep-six the notion that women want men to be "bad boys." At this point, from what I hear, they just want men to be functional adults. (but not without some playfulness - we all need some of that)
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
Yes. Its a fine line. I think the litmus test is appropriate venue. A bar, yes. Her cubicle, no.
TheVat
Valued Senior Member
Though if we say a flat no to cubicles, then my sib and I wink out of existence. And Vat père was a gentleman to the core. Not that I'm saying our present era and back then (1950s) were comparable. And I note your specifying "her cubicle" which does indeed conjure someone looming over a workspace - no doubt a polite approach at the break room table after an inviting smile is more advisable.
What I hope doesn't happen is the situation of a relative who is so courteous and reticent in the face of modern protocols that we wonder if he will ever find the love connection he's seeking. I meet nice charming millennials who are so respectful of boundaries and so thorough in categorizing all things "inappropriate" that they push towards 40 quite alone. This kind of romantic paralysis is getting a lot of coverage these days, but I don't know if anyone has the answers. I guess society might have to bring back some level of risk-taking as a good thing.
Pinball1970
Valued Senior Member
And theft, humans do things that they know is not right, illegal, immoral, ethical...
Cool. Who do you want me to beat up first?
Oh. There is a thread here just waiting for that, you know, your key point.
It's not an excuse, it is what happens in our society. LUCKILY, not all men abuse.
People do that. Lascivious is not the right word, how about fun? Mischievousness? I work with women and they rip the shit out of me 24/7 for various things and sometimes the conversation goes that way. Are you wanting to ban all sexual innuendo? Mere reference to sex? That is maybe another thread but for brevity I am saying people talk about sex, who they want to have sex with, movie stars, relationships, love, penises, vaginas and crap like that all the time. Especially women!
Yep. And we still have separate gun laws even though it's illegal to murder someone with a gun. We still have anti-drunk-driver driver education programs even though we have laws against drunk driving. We still have scanners at airports even if it's illegal to take weapons on to a flight.
Often just the law is not enough. And an education program that reduces drunk driving or hijackings WITHOUT new laws? That's a win/win.
Better training in consent. Start in elementary school.
Better training in bystander intervention. Often shit happens because people don't want to get involved, don't want to make a big deal about X, "oh that's just Danny and he's never done anything really bad before" etc.
Programs that make it clear to potential victims what their options, defenses and even responsibilities are.
Promulgating a consent culture. Talk MORE about sex so that it's not some taboo thing that doesn't get talked about until something bad happens. Incorporate consent into trivial things (asking "do you hug?" before hugging someone for example) so that it gets incorporated into things that don't really matter BEFORE you get to the things that really matter.
I think there's two different things we are talking about here.
One is a lack of consent culture, which is not synonymous with rape culture, but lives in the same space. Yes that's a big problem.
The second is flirting/being inappropriate/catcalling. And yes that can absolutely be a problem in the absence of consent. But again that's a consent problem, not "romantic paralysis."
For a concrete example, several years back we were trapped at Burning Man during one of the floods, and we had nothing to do. So we all sat in front of our camp and catcalled all the people who walked by. Because some people hate that, we had someone at the beginning of the street to ask them if they were OK being catcalled. 90% said "sure" and often laughed at the combination of terrible/trashy/nerdy/awkward catcalls we came up with. 10% said "hell no" and we didn't say anything to them. Seemed to work well.
So those millennials can be super respectful of boundaries and still end up with a lot of romantic partners. "Personal boundary" doesn't mean "don't ever go beyond this point" - it means "check first."
Pinball1970
Valued Senior Member
Weird. I never had that training in the 70s when I was growing up. Then again I never had, "never set fire to someone lessons," either. Believe it or not kids know right from wrong at a very early age, we tell them. We do not have to be that explicit about causing harm, pain, fear because they experience it themselves and know it is not pleasant.
A dog frightens them, thunder, tooth ache, a boo boo when they fall and we can refer to all of that.
Does it have to be explained to a 13 year old who is just starting calculus, that forcing someone against will to do something is not right? When they have said no?
Finally someone to beat the crap out of (funny story there for later...)
See above.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
But we were taught that girls are supposed to play hard-to-get, that girls like a persistent guy, that our job is not to take no as no when it comes to trying to get a date, that that's what separates the wet noodles from the guys who know what they want in life, etc.
Pinball1970
Valued Senior Member
There is no rape culture, it is against the law to rape in the UK, Canada too?
We were? I must have missed that.
Also, knowing what one wants in life doesn't mean one needs to be a jerk about trying to get it. Just sayin'.
