Proof that God does not exist.

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, Jan 26, 2018.

  1. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    I think Jan would be an excellent choice for the judge as it will give him experience in the necessity of evidence in even trivial matters.
    Alex
     
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  3. river

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    Alex , what is your bottom line here , to summarise , you are saying .....
     
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  5. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Oh dear god Noooooooo

    Since Jan is on my Iggy list I'm out of the court room whenever he post

    Don't expect unbiased rulings and expect judgments about admissible evidence to be lopsided

    But your thread your rules

    Go for it

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  7. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    To prove God is dead in court would be difficult, since you could just invoke Habeus Corpus.
     
  8. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I thought I have been perfectly clear river what are you having difficulty with.
    Alex
     
  9. river

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    Just asking you to summarise your thinking , nothing more .
     
  10. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Time to lobby the politicians to amend the law.
    I actually nabbed a debtor once on a similar writ to Habeus Corpus ..it was Habeus something...the guy was doing a runner and I had the sheriff officers drag him off the boat only an hour and a half before it was to leave...was he surprised...took him to his solicitors got a bank cheque and let him go back on the ship...my client was most impressed.
    Alex
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  11. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Not so

    Habeus Corpus does NOT refer to a physical persons body

    Habeus Corpus means "show me the body of EVIDENCE"

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  12. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    Maybe this will help

    habeas corpus
    ˌheɪbɪəs ˈkɔːpəs/
    noun
    LAW
    1. a writ requiring a person under arrest to be brought before a judge or into court, especially to secure the person's release unless lawful grounds are shown for their detention.
      "his application for habeas corpus"
      • the legal right to apply for a habeas corpus writ.
        "Europe was first to introduce habeas corpus and the jury system.
    From Wiki.

    Alex
     
  13. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

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    Sadly, this topic seems to be nothing but trolling then. I had hoped for more.
    The "tactic" seems to be wholly perceived and employed by you. I don't know any religious people that would be aware of it as such.
    And I assume you won't have any examples to the contrary.

    Thanks for so quickly disabusing me of the notion of taking you seriously.
     
  14. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    That wont be easy but for you river I will try.

    I started the thread believing that as the law requires proof of specific types varying between criminal and civil matters that one could satisfy either of those standards of proof and in effect prove a negative.

    However there was a point where I thought that theists must be happy to hold arguements about God as to do so would lend some credibility to their belief.

    I felt the discussion moved too fast past a point at which we should take time to determine if there could be any God at all.

    However as I retreated I have been called to back up my various claims which I really cant be bothered to do so and as a result risked the stigma to be branded as lacking credibility in any previous demand I may have made for evidence and more or less accepting that I will be regarded as no better than a theist who never backs up their claim with evidence.

    And so we arrive at where we are somewhat wandering around with our hands in our pockets wondering what will happen next.

    And I must say out of anyone you alone have at least tried to offer something in support of there being a God and although I dont absolutely agree with all you have put forward certainly respect the fact that you did at least try and compliment you for so doing.

    Basically my position now becomes ...if a theist wants to discuss a God he must first present some reason why anyone should indulge his imaginings ... and if something even himts at there being anything at all to this invention we can loosly call God then and only then may the discussion proceed.

    But for me I have resolved not to give credibility to any invented notion by discussing it before it becomes reasonably established.

    Alex
     
    river likes this.
  15. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Oh please dont be sad for your assumption that the thread was started as a trolling exercise is incorrect.

    I think my premise can be understood ...which is using the standard of proof used in our courts it should be possible to prove there is no God....
    If you wish step into my shoes and manage the case...if you feel uncomfortable making God the focus perhaps select Santa...Do you not believe you could argue along the lines I suggest?
    Are you moving the posts?
    It was you who mentioned tactic...need I go on to point out you are going off the road here?
    And tactic is not a dirty word you know..it describes ...er it describes ...well it describes a tactic.
    I certainly believe that making assumptions is dangerous because they are after all assumptions.
    However if you wish to employ assumption that is up to you.
    No problems I had been hinting but felt maybe I needed to make it very obvious ...

    If you think there is anything to be gained by going back to square one please say so.

    Alex
     
  16. river

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    Alex

    god to me is being , not a god persay , but a being which is in every thing .

    god though is otherwise a abrahamic symbol from the ancient times . Which is entirely different from my point of a god . god does exist in these texts because at the time , this being was a physical being .
     
  17. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

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    Whether or not the intent was to troll, it's clear that's the result. Every attempt made to engage your premise was met with flippancy and no indication of intent to hold up your stated end.
    Now it's just boring. Oh well.
     
  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    And it was you who introduced the concept of mens rea ...how convenient that the concept now seems forgotten.

    Part of my tactic could be to wear out any opposition...had you considered that may be my plan?

    Think about it this way.

    I am now in the position where I know what you are thinking without engaging in haste and responding with what I hold back for perhaps a crushing ending and at the same time frustrating you such that you become less determined and also prone to make irrelevent accusations, such as, that I am trolling, such that my credibility is ruined..have you thought I may just consider we are only halfway through round one...

    Read the openning post there is a clue therein...ok I will spell it out...no you re read it.

    In fact reread everything and consider your positition.

    Good you are now tiring and its still round one.

    And I also think the thread could be really something because after all we all happily agree that one can not prove a negative and all are confident that position is correct.

    I say it is not correct.
    Even when you lose to me you will have enjoyed the experience.

    So far river is the only person who has presented, with an honesty that I respect, something as to providing an insite that for him life is a indication that there is a God.

    River suggests that life is evidence in itself that there is a God and although I ordinarily would say thats not evidence given that there is nothing else I dont feel rivers view should be casually dismissed.

    It is honest and concise.

    If only others could be as honest as river.

    He is to be applauded for coming forward and honestly offering his view.

    He stands alone and he is entitled to stand proud.

    From you and others your attempt to progress matters past where river has taken the matter is unforgivable and then to somehow to claim in various ways I avoid some responsibilty to behave in a manner you choose does not impress me in the least.

    So we reach this spot where I must prove a straw man does not exist for you offer me nothing to work with...If you want me to prove anything past that, which I now say that I will not be bothered to do, you had better present something with the same honesty that river employed in his effort to establish his belief that there is a God.

    Really what have you got?

    Alex
     
  19. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    13,077
    Exactly

    god is not under arrest

    He is accused

    The requirement is for the EVIDENCE to be produced to keep him under arrest

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    habeas corpus.

    (Latin) You have the body; a writ that institutes a court proceeding to determine whether a criminal defendant has been lawfully imprisoned, or to test the constitutionality of a conviction; also used in cases of child custody and deportation

    Legal dictionary

    ie produce the evidence or set him / her free
    also
    a more common mistake / popular misconception "show me the dead body"

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    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  20. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

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    2,046
    Nice try. You already rejected mens rea when you demanded civil law standards.
     
  21. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    First thing Jan sorry for the late reply...
    I was in a rush got off a short reply and did not get back to your post.
    I now do so although you seem to have me on toast.

    I guess what I seek as evidence would be something that could show God made known something and that event is credible ...
    I just cant see where the idea starts and if you look to where the idea starts you cant look to stuff that borders on witchcraft really.

    Further something from modern times perhaps.

    I dont believe I am bluffing why would you think such a thing?

    They really should however.
    I dont see why there is a percieved problem for them to question their beliefs unless their beliefs are so fragile no one is prepared to risk playing with the house of cards.

    It just seems all blindly follow the party line and do not actually think if God could be different to what the party line dictates.
    Yes I can go with that.
    Thats a funny thing to say .. why would I knock myself out????
    Like what?
    Why does the burden move to me?
    Your God ... start talking I wont interrupt.
    Well help me out and explain why you can not simply provide something...you just dont seem to be able to contribute.

    Look at rivers contribution at least he makes an honest attempt to explain how he views things but you just muddy the water such that I really dont know what you are talking about or if you even know what you are talking about.
    No I am serious.
    If you read the earlier links I think certainly you would have to agree the evil debate leaves theists badly beaten.
    Nevertheless if you see it differently you may do so but the evil debate must make all theists uncomfortable and if not one must wonder if they bother to think at all.
    Look at the links provided earlier and tell me honestly what you find.
    Hardley a reasonable responce to my post Jan.

    I made the statement there is nothing such that we can get off the ground...your answer takes us no further.

    Why do you avoid offerring something is it because you have nothing.
    What does this have to do with my simple request for reasonable information?
    At the head.
    Do you see my point Jan all I suggest is one step at a time...step one is to provide something to discuss that is tangible not this wishy washy evasive chatter you like to employ.
    Just talk straight that is all I ask which does not seem unreasonable.
    I do not need to show something that sticks out like ...well sticks out like it does.
    True Jan.
    But hopefully you will.
    Fortunately if we apply the standard of proof required at law the machinery is there to prove God does not exist even if he does.

    So stick around and eventually when I have everthing set up I will roll out the steam roller.
    Jan I have you to thank for my approach for from you I learnt to dtaw things out, also to frustrate others to the point they go bald at their own hands.
    Further we have yet to define the concept of proof...what proof would you need for example.
    Yes I do feel that I have bitten off more than I can chew so I ask can you help me out and give me something better to chew upon like some morsel that would indicate which windmill I should attack next...something like God was first recorded in whatever scripture..that sort of thing.
    Seems like a closed club Jan.
    I say that youust be able to offer something.
    Look at river he stood up and honestly and sincerely tried to communicate his idea of God...and yet you present elitist, excuse the venacular, bulldust...why this pretence and this elitist nonsense.
    Very interesting and not surprising.
    I guess it must be an embarrassment when you discover pretenders in the ranks...now if there was ongoing discussion as to why members believed in God you could weed those folk out much earlier.
    And I think I will really put anyone claiming to be an athiest to the test..they may only be agnostic.
    Jan how many times now have I cautioned you not to think your thoughts become reality. I can not remember thats how many.
    Take my words onboard else enlightenment escapes over the horizon.
    Yes indeed you know it and you know it, I guess I dont count.
    Jan honestly I would love it if God really did exist because we would not have the evil debate as a real God would fix all that...but I must learn to accept there is no God and that cruelty and suffering will continue with no hope a God created world will ever be real and that folk will lie to themselves to take their minds off their miserable existence with no purpose.

    And I would love a soul which I interpret as immortality but sadly like Santa reality denies us from enjoying mere delusions.
    None?
    So that why you dont even try...now we know.

    Alex
     
  22. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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  23. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Just because I reject something does not take it out of existence and it is silly to think that I have such a power.
    Mens Rea is still part of the law and when you accuse me of a crime it is you who openned the door and invited it back in...
    If you think I was trolling go ahead and offer proof and I will hear you out.
    Alex
     

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