Powering the World With Alternative Energy

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by TruthSeeker, Jun 12, 2007.

  1. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    23,198
    Thanks, It is ironic, but I have just returned from a 3 day ban. I deserved it as I did spam quite a few (~20?) threads with the same brief post, directing readers attention to a longer post concerning my solution to the current economic crises and asking readers to contact their congress men/women if they thought my idea better than Paulson's.

    I intend to make post about ones duty to violate rules (civil disobedance) but when doing so one must try to make the least inconvenience to others possible. Thus, immediately after spamming, I reported myself for doing so and promissed to clean up my spam, but the mod who banned me was quick and I am still catching up on 3 days of post so have not yet checked to see if all my spam is gone.

    Other essential thing about civil disobedance is that you must feel so strongly about your cause, that you gladly accept the punishment. I did and also in my self report stated that I would accept it. In fact now than I am back, I praise the mod who, doing his job well, banned me. As a leader in the civil right movement of the 60s, I have a lot of experience about what works to advance your cause. It may be too late, now, but if you agree with following, I again ask your to tell your congressman so. (I do not expect to be banned again for being in partly off thread in my reply to you, but if I am, more than half of the poster are often 100% off thread and we can start new forum.

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    It was actually a benefit to be banned - Kept me from waisting time here when US is in crisis. - While banned I did contact many congress men, (One replied with more than form letter). I posted comments in current issue of The Economist's two lead articles and refinded presentation of my idea to be as follows (I will return and replace following with link when it is posted in more appropriate thread.):


    Paulson’s plan will fail because it treats only a symptom and not the cause of America’s financial illness, which is: Too many were persuaded to buy more house than they could afford by irresponsible, greedy writers of innovative new mortgage types. Everyone was operating on the “greater fool” theory and assuming the un-payable mortgage would clear later when the house was resold. Many of these mortgages writers knew it was a criminal Ponzi scheme, designed to collect large bonuses.

    A real cure must:
    (1) Restore liquidity to financial system. (Make the toxic paper worth face value.)*
    (2) Get Joe American into housing he can afford.
    (3) Transfer real assets, not toxic trash, to Uncle Sam.
    (4) Not significantly increase US’s already excessive debt.
    (5) Prevent repetition of the problem.

    All five are simultaneously possible. See full details of how in OP (and vote in poll) here:

    http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2025940&postcount=1

    ------------------
    *The "feet dragging" Republicans refusing to accept Paulson's plan, even with the CEO bonus caps etc., have a good point (as do I). We only need to insure that ALL mortgages will be paid in full, not buy them all. These Republicans no doubt want to give this job to private insurance compainies, but as the biggest (AIG) has already failed, that will not work.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2008
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  3. kmguru Staff Member

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    Just a thought:

    Since Joe is unemployed or very much underemployed, should not we work on that too as a priority? No jobs...means can not pay mortgage...means bankcrupty...means house price in the local going down ...means equity disappear etc.

    No jobs also means Joe can not afford the house he is living in...means....

    There is a massive unemployment issue because my friend works at the welfare office and the needs are going sky high....all due to unemployment...but no one tracks the welfare part....
     
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  5. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    We are getting off thread (my new one, soon in Businesses & Economnics will be called "Paulson's plan -do it or not?" if not one there already.)

    Yes jobs are essential, but there will be NONE if the dollar becomes worthless, so first prority of a job protection program is to prevent that, which excessive use of the printing presses can assure.

    Well, more accurately: There will not be any fiat money paid jobs. Hunter / gather society do have lots of work to do and barter things. Getting to a sustainable Hunter /gather society in USA would be deadly, but the blood shed should help with soil fertility.

    I do not expect the dollar to become totally worthless but it IMHO is very close to collapse, perhaps so much that new ones will be needed (To lop two zeros off the old ones - the old $100 bill is worth one "new dollar.")
     
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  7. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    Neither side in this is perfectly correct.
    Regardless of precisely how much, wind & solar power can make a huge difference. The overall picture shows we should've long ago got this going to where it's common now.
     
  8. Spud Emperor solanaceous common tater Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, but better late than never and surely advancements will come.
     
  9. CheskiChips Banned Banned

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    Underway in Phoenix, Phoenix gets the most sun in the US with little exception.
     
  10. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    That is a solar thermal design. I think with the cooling towers in the two large linear structures.

    Where does the water evaporated daily come from? I mention this to point out that although desert land is cheap, water there is not. Are they going to try some dry heat exchanger?

    BTW - I see you are a "mobile ski machine" driver. Does your wife put lipstick on pigs? (or keep eye on the Russians, while hanging out the laundry)?

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  11. CheskiChips Banned Banned

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    I don't know much about solar power. But the water supply in Phoenix isn't horrible. It's shared with LA. The price for LA Water down that man made canal is equivalent to large scale desalinization. Also currently the nuclear power plant in Phoenix I think sells electricity to LA.

    So it seems likely that to subsidize creating desalinization plants in Ca, power would be given to Ca to offset the price.


    Note: I am not actually Snowmobile driver, it's for the Mafia III game in Free Thoughts.
     
  12. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    I think that is reasonable, but lowers the economic efficiency if part ot the power produced is given away instead of sold. Also the total capital cost must include the fractional share of the Desalination plant and the pumps and pipeline delivering it to Phoenix AZ area.

    I am not against this installation, but do want people to understand better the economics. At least 3/4 of the cost of electric power is already the capital cost of the system. Making it from fuel free solar power may be necessary, but it will cost more. Nothing is as cheap a high temperature heat source as the coal furnace and a brick chimeny. Too bad they make so much CO2 and other pollution. What is true of solar power being more expensive is even more so of Fusion Power, with big vacuum systems, super conducting magnets, neutron shielding, neurton activation radiation control (D/T reaction assumed) etc. - very capital intensive system, even it it can be made to work.

    My money, quite literally, is on nature's solar energy system liquid fuel system - sugar cane to alcohol. It is already cheaper energy than gasoline for typical new new oil fields; and a slightly negative (due to stored alcohol in ocean tankers and distribution pipelines port storage facilities and car fuel tanks) CO2 producer. If cellulosic alcohol works out then the entire sugar cane plant can be used with at least double the production per acre.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2008
  13. Spud Emperor solanaceous common tater Registered Senior Member

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  14. sniffy Banned Banned

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    How about a biofuel that grows where few other things could? Jatropha. Already being used in Africa, China, indo china although there are toxicolgy issues with leave sand berries.

    Better yet reduce energy overall energy consumption, improve technologies in renewables such as wind, water and solar. Can't be that far off surely??
     
  15. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    23,198
    Yes the potential is significant, but as always, the question is the cost of energy produced.

    We should get some real data on that during next few years. A company in Portugal is leading the way. Three of their rigid segment "Sea snakes" are now producing commercial power off shore and dozens more will soon join them. I.e. this is not a "developmental test." - The segments are coming steadily off the assembly line and after assembled in a "snake" at sea, they work. The manufacture will make money, but the power company selling the power may lose money.

    Each unit will support about 5000 modest, reasonably efficient, home's needs. Last week BBC had brief segment showing one at work.
     
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