Pot Growth isn't Green

Well, taxes are a bit different from outright criminalization, but...

The single best way to tell whether you're dealing with a genuine libertarian is whether they favor legalizing all recreational drugs. If not, you're just talking to a regular old right-wing dude who dislikes paying his taxes.

legalising and regulating is the safest way to go, in health care we talk about harm minimisation which apears to have worked brillantly in the nethlands. I would much rather see adicts getting there drugs from a pharmicist where the purity is regulated (rather than going up and down like a yoyo and killing people) and its "cut" with sugar and other pharmacutical grade inhert substances rather than batery acid. I may be wrong about this but i would guess i am one of the few people here who has actually seen the end result of criminalising drug use first hand. I was on a placement when we were called out cat A to an unresponcive, not breathing pt. We arived to find a regular drug user in full cardiac arest (only 2 years older than myself). It turned out that he had taken his regular dose of heroin and imidiatly felt something was wrong and went to bed, insted of calling us then and there he got his partner to check on him every hour or so. When we arived his pupils were fixed and diolated and he was in very fine VF (ie he had been dead for probably almost an hour if not 2). We worked on him for a good hour before calling it.

Ive attended alot of deaths but none of them effected me the way this one did, he shouldnt have died, if the purity of heroin on the street hadnt changed he probably never would have arested, if it wasnt illegal to get heroin he probably would have been less reluctant to call us (there is another gripe which effects this bit too, the ambulance service should be paid out of tax money just like the rest of the public health service is)
 
At least a couple of decades ago they introduced property forfeiture as a possible consequence of growing marijuana on your own land here in California. Now we have gardens on state and federal land, tended and guarded by Mexican nationals. This has made hiking in certain forests more dangerous than it should be, and there are the problems of the waste, and environmental degradation. With marijuana achieving quasi legal status in so many places, (including here) full decriminalization seems more and more to be the solution. And as bad as the budget is, California does not have the money to waste law enforcement's resources on this.

There are going to be some places, such as Humboldt and Mendocino county, where the already dismal economic situation will be made even worse by this. But I still think it will be a net positive.
 
its best to just legalize all drugs and supply it at a reduced price. that way you are taking money away from drug dealers and organized crime and able to regulate the market.
You forgot the terrorists. Worldwide, heroin is an $18 billion annual market. It all goes into the treasury of the Taliban because the shit-for-brains Western governments declared it illegal.

My parents lived through Prohibition in Chicago and saw the same thing. The Mafia was a laughable bunch of small-time hoodlums until the government so kindly shifted one of the human race's most popular commodities to the black market. They've done the same thing again with recreational drugs, only this time instead of turning the streets of Chicago into a war zone, they've turned the entire nation of Mexico into one. Gangsters in Mexico kill nine thousand people every year.

If a failed government policy resulted in the deaths of nine thousand Americans every year, we would burn down the fucking Capitol Building. But it's only Mexicans, so nobody gives a shit.
. . . . besides how many people do you know right now that drinks moonshine?
Hey, give credit where credit is due. If it hadn't been for the moonshine runners hopping up their cars to get away from the cops, there would be no NASCAR! No other country races those bizarre quasi-stock cars.

And don't forget that wonderful old folk song, "Good Old Mountain Dew," and the hit that made George Jones a star, "White Lightning." Those are both about moonshine.
I would much rather see adicts getting there drugs from a pharmicist where the purity is regulated (rather than going up and down like a yoyo and killing people) and its "cut" with sugar and other pharmacutical grade inhert substances rather than batery acid.
The same thing happened during Prohibition. Amateur distillers (often working outdoors in the dark) didn't have the same quality assurance as commercial operations, and they would sometimes end up with methanol in their product, which caused blindness and even death.
At least a couple of decades ago they introduced property forfeiture as a possible consequence of growing marijuana on your own land here in California.
Asset forfeiture has been a windfall for state and local cops. The beauty of it is that the accused person may be acquitted and set free, but that does not result in him getting his assets back. It's a separate process that can drag on for years and in many cases never be resolved. The goddamn motherfucking cops (yes I despise all cops, I'm The Last Hippie) target people for arrest based on the quantity and value of the property they can confiscate, rather than whether they really have a good case against them.
Now we have gardens on state and federal land, tended and guarded by Mexican nationals. This has made hiking in certain forests more dangerous than it should be, and there are the problems of the waste, and environmental degradation.
You don't have to tell me: I live in Humboldt County, one of the three in the "Emerald Triangle." (When I'm not working in D.C. anyway.) In the 1970s the growers would come to the county board meetings and participate like good citizens, and every year they'd submit tax returns with one line listing "Other Income: $250,000" and write a nice big check to the government.

There are still locals in the growing business, but a lot of it has indeed been taken over by Mexican nationals. The locals had their network and they weren't about to give it up, so they just read up on hydroponics and set up indoor operations: taking us full circle back to the O.P.
With marijuana achieving quasi legal status in so many places, (including here) full decriminalization seems more and more to be the solution. And as bad as the budget is, California does not have the money to waste law enforcement's resources on this.
Speaking of the state budget, how about the fabulous new source of tax revenue! You don't think for a minute that they're not going to slap a 25% or 50% tax on it, do you?

Another little-known fact about Prohibition is the circumstances of its repeal. FDR championed the relegalization of alcohol, but not for any moral reasons. The income tax in those days was nowhere near its current confiscatory level. The taxes on alcohol increased federal revenue by something like 40 percent!
There are going to be some places, such as Humboldt and Mendocino county, where the already dismal economic situation will be made even worse by this. But I still think it will be a net positive.
Don't worry about us. Humboldt County is the new retirement mecca with its 75 degree summer days and 35 degree winter nights. The new generation of retirees has no intention of sweltering in Florida like their parents. Every time I go home to Eureka it seems like they have built two new retirement homes. Elder care is the booming new industry, jobs for the children of the lumberjacks who chain-sawed themselves into unemployment.
 
FR your comment on methanol, how?

I actually brew my own beer at home, here at least lots of people do and you can buy the kits at the local Big W and the ingrediant tins (with all the hops ect in a large can) in the supermarket. So you have me a little concerned
 
Oh that is funny Frag " The last Hippie "

Is that like that song " The Last D.J. The last human voice
That be Bill Me drummer . He was a radio D.J.for 30 years and they fucked him in the end . Laid him off and told him he could work for the same amount of money as the new D.J. All about half of his salary . Oh Joy Joy . Now he works for the T.V. station learning a new game .
 
FR your comment on methanol, how? I actually brew my own beer at home, here at least lots of people do and you can buy the kits at the local Big W and the ingrediant tins (with all the hops ect in a large can) in the supermarket. So you have me a little concerned
In making whiskey and other hard liquor, you have to get your alcohol to a much higher concentration than in beer and wine, so it has to be distilled. Home-made distilleries (or "stills" as we call them here) were not manufactured to commercial standards like the equipment you buy at the store to make beer and wine. (Of course nowadays you can buy a professional-grade still and make your own whiskey but they were obviously not widely available during Prohibition.)

Farmers made their own stills out of spare wood and odds and ends they had lying around. Their processes were so poorly controlled that sometimes they'd get wood mixed in with the corn (or whatever grain they were using, but corn was popular and another name for moonshine is "corn squeezins"), so they'd get wood alcohol (methanol) mixed with the grain alcohol (ethanol).

That's not going to happen to you, assuming you know what you're doing, have professionally-manufactured equipment, and don't mix wood with your grains. ;)
 
FR your comment on methanol, how?

I actually brew my own beer at home, here at least lots of people do and you can buy the kits at the local Big W and the ingrediant tins (with all the hops ect in a large can) in the supermarket. So you have me a little concerned

Methanol is a natural byproduct of fermentation, it occurs naturally in wine, bears, and ciders. My recollection is that it's a byproduct of anerobic processes.

However

The methanol is not present in sufficient amounts to be toxic, and some sources (eg here) suggest that even distilation is insufficient to bring it up to toxic concentrations, and that the association between moonshine and methanol arose from people buying denatured alcohol and using that to fortify, or cut their brews, or simply even pass it off as moonshine (as methanol can be purchased cheaper than ethanol).
 
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Don't worry about us. Humboldt County is the new retirement mecca with its 75 degree summer days and 35 degree winter nights. The new generation of retirees has no intention of sweltering in Florida like their parents. Every time I go home to Eureka it seems like they have built two new retirement homes. Elder care is the booming new industry, jobs for the children of the lumberjacks who chain-sawed themselves into unemployment.

Eureka is my hometown, and I still have friends there. Yes, boomers are retiring there because of the climate (funny, the climate is precisely why I moved away, and will never go back) but jobs are still scarce. The boomers have driven property values through the roof, but that fact combined with the economy has made it very, very difficult for younger people to buy a home there. Many of the neighborhoods that I remember fondly as a child have completely gone to seed; drug abuse usually affects areas with a bad economy especially badly, and Eureka is no exception to this rule. Meth has become a plague (yes, I know, it has everywhere, but even more so there). With all of that, the hit that Humboldt would take if Marijuana were fully decriminalized, while unfortunate, is still not nearly enough of a reason to not do it.
 
Methanol is a natural byproduct of fermentation, it occurs naturally in wine, bears, and ciders. My recollection is that it's a byproduct of anerobic processes.

However

The methanol is not present in sufficient amounts to be toxic, and some sources (eg here) suggest that even distilation is insufficient to bring it up to toxic concentrations, and that the association between moonshine and ethanol arose from people buying denatured alcohol and using that to fortify, or cut their brews, or simply even pass it off as moonshine (as methanol can be purchased cheaper than ethanol).

did you mean to write methanol insted of ethanol in the highlight? because alchole IS ethanol (as both FR stated and you did further down your post)

FR:

Cheers, was slightly worried for a second (BTW there is no wood used in my beer with the exception of a wooden spoon to stir the ingrediants into the water, the keg is plastic)
 
Oh that is funny Frag " The last Hippie "
There was a country song called "The Last Hippie" 20-25 years ago. I don't remember it very well but it was kind of sweet and melancholy. The only lyric I can recall was something like "He still cries about the day John Lennon died."

I have more than once thought about doing some kind of writing (I suppose today it would be a blog) under the nom de plume "The Last Hippie." In 1985 I drew a poster about contemporary music with the caption, "You can call it 'new wave,' you can call it 'techno-funk,' you can call it 'aerobic dancing' or 'the yuppie two-step,' but it's still DISCO and it still SUCKS."

Two things always stopped me:
  • Only Baby Boomers were hippies and I was born three years too early in 1943.
  • While I enthusiastically participated in many of the signature activities of the hippies, like the Sexual Revolution and the motorcycles, I was always disqualified from hippiedom because I always had: A) a job and B) a place to live.
 
How many Californians Do we have in this joint . My god it sure seems like a butt load of posters . Me Neighbor had a girl friend in Eureka. We worked together and one time I went with him . His Girlfriends parents had a house on a good size hill , Not quite Mountain just out side of Eureka. Oh fuck her brother was one wild ass farm boy . Him and I headed to town off that mountain , not quite but more than a hill to get some beer and I was positive we were going to die . What a fucking riot . I don't know how fast he was going on that pot holed dirt road but you know how it is when your going to fast on dirt and gravel how the car our truck slips side ways . A yeah . Off the road any minute . He didn't though . I was sure glad to get back to the Ranch House at the top of the Not quite a Mountain . Fun times yes indeed . Eureka! The weed was good too
 
...Sounds more like you've got a thing against smoking pot. Maybe we should all get our doctors to prescribe us some Xanax or painkillers. Maybe we should all get drunk. You know, abuse legal drugs instead of use the nearest thing theologians have to the Babel fish.....

no. I just think its hypocritical. A few of the pot smokers friends I have are all "its natural" "its from mother earth' etc. But if its hurting mother earth, wouldn't it be selfish and hypocritical to keep growing it like this?
 
Much of the cannabis grown in the US these days is done so in small indoor gardens. They are properly termed "stealth grows" or "microstealth grows" depending on how large or small the operation. These are very hard for LEO (law enforcement officers) to find due to the small electricity consumption and heat signature. Most are under 1000 Watts total lights and fans, about the same as a common pc, and are located in a vented interior closet. Cervantes assures us that a decent cannabis gardener can achieve a 2 gram per light Watt yield, though most average about 1/2 that.

Many micro growers have tried LED systems, several of which are sold to cannabis growers to cut heat and electric footprint. Thus far the results have been extremely poor both in quantity and in quality. The standard for lighting is High Intensity Discharge (HID) lighting - Metal Halide (MH) and High Pressure Sodium (HPS) bulbs. Currently available ballasts can switch from one type to another automatically and consume much less electricity than electromagnetic ballasts. Lower budget growers use compact fluorescent lighting (CF's) to good effect and yield. There is usually some "overgrow" beyond the growers needs that the gardener passes on or sells to other consumers.

Many street lights are 1000 Watt HPS bulbs, commercial buildings use 1000 W HPS and MH bulbs as well so these are available at Home Depot etc as well as hydro stores everywhere.

No matter what laws you write, no matter how much money you waste on futile attempts to enforce those laws, the very act of writing and attempting enforcement of "drug" laws escalates the value of the substance in question. In my lifetime I have seen the price of an ounce of cannabis go from $10 US (Acapulco Gold, 1967) to $750 US (Canadian hydroponic AK 47, 2011) mostly due to prohibition, which is indeed the US federal governments attempt to repeal the law of supply and demand. The potential profits in the illicit substance market insure the involvement of organized crime in same. A good perspective on this aspect of the topic can be found in "Why Our Drug Laws Have Failed and What We Can Do About It" by CA Republican Superior Court Justice (and former federal drug war prosecutor) Grey. If you can be arsed to read it, you will be enlightened. :)

It is not possible for the government to regulate what individual persons consume for whatever purpose. It is no business of the government what the persons motivation is. The money spent on interdiction jurisdiction and incarceration of persons for "drug crimes" are assets that are not available to fight terrorism, violent crimes and serious economic crimes.

You want to "go green"? Buy cf's, install roof mounted solar and wind generators, drive an efficient auto that matches your lifestyle needs and drive it wisely. Improve your homes insulation, upgrade your heating and cooling systems, buy organic produce grown locally.

Want to get pot growers to grow greener? Support legalization of all drugs, starting with cannabis. "Drugs" - whatever those may be defined as - should be handled as a health care issue, not a legal issue. The current system simply does not work at all.

You will note the correction on your perspective, Cosmic. It is illogical to equate violent crimes against others with consuming psychotropic substances. That is a "straw man" argument and must be tossed as such. :eek: I do perceive and appreciate your emotional investment in this topic however.
 
(Of course nowadays you can buy a professional-grade still and make your own whiskey but they were obviously not widely available during Prohibition.)

Not legally, you can't. Without applying for a bevy of special licenses to distill liquor, you are only allowed to use stills for things like water purification. Which licenses are not easy to come by - in the county I live in, exactly one such license has been granted since prohibition (and it's to a large commercial operation with the bankroll to manage such requirments). Meanwhile, all sellers of stills big enough to use in alcohol distillation are required to provide lists of all buyers to the ATF.

The only people I've known who got away with home distilling were chemists or engineers who built their own stills. Everything I've heard indicates that purchasing a commercially-made still is an invitation for a knock on your door from the ATF...

Beer and wine are very different stories, although even that varies from state to state. There do exist states where it is illegal to homebrew beer or wine.
 

Right - but read through the info carefully. The company in question had to move out of North Carolina because it is illegal to manufacture stills there. Also note that he "strongly suggests" that potential buyers obtain a "fuel alcohol producer" permit before purchasing his products. This type of permit being, apparently, easier to obtain, even though it does not actually allow you to produce liquor for human consumption.

Of course, with all of his recipes and so on, he's pretty much begging for trouble eventually...

Much like medical marijuana, home distillation is a grey-market area, with enforcement subject to priorities and discretion of various authorities. It is by no means actually "legal."
 
I just want to know how personal use pot farmers can continue to illegally grow if it harms the planet.

would they say "well, you drive a car"
 
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