Possible harebrained method to find kidnap victims who have pacemakers

TheVat

Valued Senior Member
First let me acknowledge that most kidnap victims aren't the mother of a celebrity and are not getting the media or law enforcement attention which Nancy Guthrie is. That's not right. But until we create the perfect world, I'm using the Guthrie kidnapping as my example.

Basically, we have an 84 year old woman with a pacemaker which sends signals out on the Medical Implant Communication Service Band. Pacemakers transmit data via low-power radio signals (often 402–405 MHz MICS band) to a nearby bedside monitor, typically with a maximum range of up to 50 feet. These signals are designed for short-range communication, such as downloading data to a home monitor or an in-clinic device, and do not transmit over long distances.

So here's an idea, when the investigation reaches a point where they know the area she might most likely be held. Say it's Tucson, area 240 sm. Now let's say that law enforcement can rule out some neighborhoods as likely locations for a kidnapper's holding place, get it down to 100 sm. So I get an estimate that a fast drone could do a low search flyover of a square mile in 4-12 hours. It would whiz along just a few feet over rooftops ) to be within that 50 foot range) with an MICS receiver onboard and a way to log the device ID codes it detects.

So (taking the conservative estimate, 12 hours), we would need 1200 drone-hours, say a team of 20 drones searching for 60 hours. Let's round up to three days.

Practical problems

Expense. This cost would be less per mission if this became a widely
used method involving a dedicated drone team with MICS receivers.

Public knowledge. If such a method is known to the public, then kidnappers of victims with medical implants could try to sequester them in rooms with Faraday shielding. I am unsure how difficult that would be for MICS frequencies.

Privacy considerations. Possibly MICS receivers for this purpose would have to be programmed ignore all pings from non-target devices? Or somehow anonymize all logged device codes except the victim's?

Geographical evasion. If the proposed system is known, then kidnappers might turn to more remote locations, less likely to be on a search grid. However, unusual activity is generally more noticeable in such locations (the "small town effect" where everyone notices a stranger, or an out-of-county license plate), so that could be some compensation.

Anyway, I welcome any shredding or suggestions on this. The basic idea, that a drone team could scan a small/medium city in just a few days, seems worth looking at, especially in light of the huge numbers of people [ETA Nope, not that huge, my erroneous assumption corrected in next post] with medical implants and how easily drones can pass within broadcast range of such devices.
 
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So I was briefly bamboozled by my search engine. My idea was going on a population where 30% of older population have medical implants which transmit. This was incorrect as the AI search seems to have included ALL implants. Clearly that titanium pin in Aunt Martha's knee or Uncle John's tooth root implant does not send telemetry. So, really, we are looking at only around three percent of the elderly who actually do send telemetry to an in-home monitor. So, while this thread could be an interesting intellectual exercise, it's harder to see practical implementation.
 
I’m going to apply Occam’s Razor to this bizarre story and go with, she wasn’t kidnapped (“experts” have been weighing in that typically, kidnappers want to get their money in a quick transaction). I don’t think she’s alive at this point. And usually, victims know their attackers, in some way. All of this media attention imo, is so the authorities can focus on the lead or two they have. They’re not sharing everything they know, would be my guess. If you look at other recent high profile cases, Murdaugh, Kohberger, etc - they didn’t make arrests for months. So, I think the dude in the Ring video on NG’s front porch, was likely the guy who was hired to stage it like a kidnapping. If six months goes by with no arrests, then I’ll likely think differently. Natalee Hollaway’s case took years to solve, but it showed, that her attacker was the last person who saw her alive - a guy who was known for preying on tourists who hung out with her while she was on vacation. I can’t help but think that NG’s son-in-law was involved. The drop off story changed a few times. Why lie about dropping your family member off? :(

The person stayed in her house for 40 minutes which they said is really odd. Unfortunately, the sleuths hired on the case sound pretty lost, which is an entirely other sad story.

Related to your topic, though - the reports mentioned that Nancy Guthrie’s pacemaker app was deactivated or disconnected from her phone. Maybe that’s the same thing. Would that make a difference to your theory/idea?
 
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Related to your topic, though - the reports mentioned that Nancy Guthrie’s pacemaker app was deactivated or disconnected from her phone. Maybe that’s the same thing. Would that make a difference to your theory/idea?
Turning off an app shouldn't AFAIK stop the pacemaker from emitting some kind of ping, but I'll admit I'm not yet conversant on all the tech aspects.

I think the murder-disguised-as-kidnap theory has some plausible aspects. Especially given that the victim is elderly and not likely to thrive in a stressful confinement without her meds. If money were really the objective, you would think they'd have provided PoL early on and expedited the trade for ransom. It all begs the question, who on earth would want to murder NG? (Unless....don tinfoil hats now, messieurs et mesdames...this was meant to send a message to Savannah, who did interview some of the Epstein victims)(And DOJ had just released a new batch of documents around the time of NG disappearing)
 
Even the most modern pacemakers don't transmit that far, 6 feet at most.

I think it was just a bungled burglary and he was probably on drugs, panicked when she was home and he thought the house was empty and he killed her and disposed of the body somewhere.

It make little rational sense but drugged out criminals rarely make logical sense. All of the other scenarios make even less sense, IMO.
 
Even the most modern pacemakers don't transmit that far, 6 feet at most.
A special purpose detector, which is what I was considering, can detect to 50 feet or more.

When using a development board that uses the same transceiver, with no modifications to the stock antenna, reliable communication will max out at about 50 feet. With a high gain antenna, you could probably increase this range.


I checked a couple other sources, too. Some said up to 200 feet, with such a detector, but I used the conservative estimate. Your information was based on a standard bedside or in-clinic device, which obviously doesn't need such a range and so isn't engineered for that.
 
First thing that came to mind when I read the OP.

But to the list of practical problems I would add that people are gonna be losing their shit over a bunch of low-flying drones--just a few feet over rooftops?--and many of these drones would likely be taken out in some manner or another.
 
First thing that came to mind when I read the OP.

But to the list of practical problems I would add that people are gonna be losing their shit over a bunch of low-flying drones--just a few feet over rooftops?--and many of these drones would likely be taken out in some manner or another.
That's an interesting point - I had wondered if there would need to be some use of something like the Emergency Broadcast System with a notification that there would be a kidnap search for the next couple days and have someone independently certify the drones were programmed for the one purpose and weren't going to ogle someone's sunbathing teenage daughter or whatever. In these times, independent inspection that will be widely trusted might also be an insurmountable hurdle.

There's a certain irony to me posting this thread at all, given my loathing of anything that smacks of personal surveillance or chipping people. To give a sense of where I am on the spectrum, I own a flip-phone with no GPS or web capability. SMS and voice only. Most transactions cash. I generally don't feel a human life needs to be represented by a set of digital traces in a global computer network. Just picky that way, I guess. Yes, more irony that I'm posting this on a website.
 
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That's an interesting point - I had wondered if there would need to be some use of something like the Emergency Broadcast System with a notification that there would be a kidnap search for the next couple days and have someone independently certify the drones were programmed for the one purpose and weren't going to ogle someone's sunbathing teenage daughter or whatever. In these times, independent inspection that will be widely trusted might also be an insurmountable hurdle.

There's a certain irony to me posting this thread at all, given my loathing of anything that smacks of personal surveillance or chipping people. To give a sense of where I am on the spectrum, I own a flip-phone with no GPS or web capability. SMS and voice only. Most transactions cash. I generally don't feel a human life needs to be represented by a set of digital traces in a global computer network. Just picky that way, I guess. Yes, more irony that I'm posting this on a website.
Что в этом необычного? У меня несколько телефонов, но основной тоже кнопочный без интернета.
 
There's a certain irony to me posting this thread at all, given my loathing of anything that smacks of personal surveillance or chipping people. To give a sense of where I am on the spectrum, I own a flip-phone with no GPS or web capability. SMS and voice only. Most transactions cash. I generally don't feel a human life needs to be represented by a set of digital traces in a global computer network. Just picky that way, I guess. Yes, more irony that I'm posting this on a website.
And, now there are donut shops that refuse to take cash. A fucking donut shop.
 
First you need something that can detect a single frequency at distance from the noise and somehow detect the single transmission at that frequency.
 
That's an interesting point - I had wondered if there would need to be some use of something like the Emergency Broadcast System with a notification that there would be a kidnap search for the next couple days and have someone independently certify the drones were programmed for the one purpose and weren't going to ogle someone's sunbathing teenage daughter or whatever. In these times, independent inspection that will be widely trusted might also be an insurmountable hurdle.

There's a certain irony to me posting this thread at all, given my loathing of anything that smacks of personal surveillance or chipping people. To give a sense of where I am on the spectrum, I own a flip-phone with no GPS or web capability. SMS and voice only. Most transactions cash. I generally don't feel a human life needs to be represented by a set of digital traces in a global computer network. Just picky that way, I guess. Yes, more irony that I'm posting this on a website.
Yeah, I guess that really falls under "privacy considerations".

Honestly though, it's really hard to assess just how much of a hurdle in this day and age such would present. I mean, on one hand, thinking it an insurmountable hurdle is necessarily contingent upon a lot of presuppositions I'm no longer, uhh, "comfortable" with--as regards the nature and degree of most folks' knowing and understanding. So many people will seemingly knowingly cede so much privacy anymore just so they can have some stupid ass gadget. People are inundated with devices which constantly monitor and surveil every moment of their lives, waking and otherwise; but then when it comes to someone else's drone flying over their house? They're not having it.

And I say "they" and mean it with respect to gadgets and whatnots, but I'm sometimes rather lax with respect to my own privacy in certain other regards perhaps.
 
Turning off an app shouldn't AFAIK stop the pacemaker from emitting some kind of ping, but I'll admit I'm not yet conversant on all the tech aspects.

I think the murder-disguised-as-kidnap theory has some plausible aspects. Especially given that the victim is elderly and not likely to thrive in a stressful confinement without her meds. If money were really the objective, you would think they'd have provided PoL early on and expedited the trade for ransom. It all begs the question, who on earth would want to murder NG? (Unless....don tinfoil hats now, messieurs et mesdames...this was meant to send a message to Savannah, who did interview some of the Epstein victims)(And DOJ had just released a new batch of documents around the time of NG disappearing)
I thought of this thread when they were discussing tracking her pacemaker on the news earlier. Unfortunately, I think most of the time, it’s someone close to the victim that is usually the “kidnapper.” I should say, when adults go missing. And it takes time to arrest people and this could all be just to keep the general public calm, as they zero in on whomever it could be. Maybe I read too many psychological thrillers and mysteries, so there’s that.
 
Even the most modern pacemakers don't transmit that far, 6 feet at most.

I think it was just a bungled burglary and he was probably on drugs, panicked when she was home and he thought the house was empty and he killed her and disposed of the body somewhere.

It make little rational sense but drugged out criminals rarely make logical sense. All of the other scenarios make even less sense, IMO.
That guy didn’t act drugged out from the Ring video, though. He seemed calm, like he wasn’t expecting anyone to show up or sneak up…never looked around. I don’t think there would have been a reason to stay in her house for 40 minutes, not steal anything and murder NG, and take her body to dispose of her. Just my opinion, but I think that guy looked staged to appear like a random robbery. How did the guy break in? I don’t recall hearing those details.
 
That guy didn’t act drugged out from the Ring video, though. He seemed calm, like he wasn’t expecting anyone to show up or sneak up…never looked around. I don’t think there would have been a reason to stay in her house for 40 minutes, not steal anything and murder NG, and take her body to dispose of her. Just my opinion, but I think that guy looked staged to appear like a random robbery. How did the guy break in? I don’t recall hearing those details.
I don't think we know the answer to that. They always say no forced entry but LE usually only releases info to the public that will help LE so we really don't know the answer to most questions.

Some have said that his eyes indicated that drugs might have been involved but who knows? I don't personally think anything was "stagged". I think it's like you indicated, following Occam's Razor, which to me would be a bungled burglary. I also think if he stayed 40 minutes, drugs may have been involved. Otherwise, do does that?
 
Yeah, I guess that really falls under "privacy considerations".

Honestly though, it's really hard to assess just how much of a hurdle in this day and age such would present. I mean, on one hand, thinking it an insurmountable hurdle is necessarily contingent upon a lot of presuppositions I'm no longer, uhh, "comfortable" with--as regards the nature and degree of most folks' knowing and understanding. So many people will seemingly knowingly cede so much privacy anymore just so they can have some stupid ass gadget. People are inundated with devices which constantly monitor and surveil every moment of their lives, waking and otherwise; but then when it comes to someone else's drone flying over their house? They're not having it.

And I say "they" and mean it with respect to gadgets and whatnots, but I'm sometimes rather lax with respect to my own privacy in certain other regards perhaps.
Особенно если эти дроны несут на себе 100 кг. взрывчатки, и начинены железными шариками. Странно, почему люди не готовы их терпеть?
 
I don't think we know the answer to that. They always say no forced entry but LE usually only releases info to the public that will help LE so we really don't know the answer to most questions.

Some have said that his eyes indicated that drugs might have been involved but who knows? I don't personally think anything was "stagged". I think it's like you indicated, following Occam's Razor, which to me would be a bungled burglary. I also think if he stayed 40 minutes, drugs may have been involved. Otherwise, do does that?
News reports did say evidence of forced entry had been found. I don't know that anyone could, in those lighting conditions, be able to discern from that guy's eyes that he was on drugs. Everyone is grasping at straws, due to the necessarily limited information feed from LE. I did wonder if that 40 minutes might indicate that there was violence which the intruder needed time to clean up traces of (though cleanup activities also leave traces as well).
 
I don't think we know the answer to that. They always say no forced entry but LE usually only releases info to the public that will help LE so we really don't know the answer to most questions.

Some have said that his eyes indicated that drugs might have been involved but who knows? I don't personally think anything was "stagged". I think it's like you indicated, following Occam's Razor, which to me would be a bungled burglary. I also think if he stayed 40 minutes, drugs may have been involved. Otherwise, do does that?
Okay, good to know that I didn't miss anything. I haven't been following as closely as the early days of NG's disappearance. They supposedly ruled out the family. I don't know why they would take the body away from the house if they killed her (if it was a bungled burglary) Hmm...
 
Okay, good to know that I didn't miss anything. I haven't been following as closely as the early days of NG's disappearance. They supposedly ruled out the family. I don't know why they would take the body away from the house if they killed her (if it was a bungled burglary) Hmm...
It's hard to prove murder if there is no body.
 
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