Piracy

[Baron Max]

The whole "copying stuff is stealing" line of BS is simply an attempt by the music and software companies to simplify the issue and avoid real discussion on the ethics of intellectual property and copyright infringement.

Well, it needs to be "simplified" since the way our laws on copyright infringement would mean that music and software companies would have to sue each single individual in court. They can't be sued as a group! So that would cost gazillions of dollars and tie up the courts for decades.

I agree that "stealing" is the wrong word, but the way the Internet is set up now, copyright infringement is not the right term either. But regardless of what we call it, anyone who can claim that software and music "piracy" is okay, and not illegal, is just hiding from the ideals of the principles of ethics and right n' wrong. (Or like Nasor above who is simply making it a little game of symantics)

Baron Max

 

[parmalee]

Originally Posted by Randwolf
So you stand on principle, rather than pragmatism. Well, if my position could be proven true, I imagine a great deal of musicians would disagree with your hypothesis. They would probably rather have the increase in revenue... Don't ya think?

i would venture to guess that for every hard copy of my own albums that exists, there are at least two or three "pirated" copies somewhere out there. typically, the labels that i am on send out about two hundred promotional copies of albums to freeform radio stations, publications (for review), etc. within a couple of weeks, i will find my album--in it's entirety--posted on a handful of blogs. a few weeks later, i will find it available, for free, on a handful of torrent services and file sharing networks.

do i care? no. do any of the hundreds of musicians i know care? no. well, i know one guy who cares--but he's a schmuck.

your argument--in post #71--is correct, from my own experience at least. the thousands and thousands of copies of my albums which have been downloaded "illegally" would probably not have translated into actual sales. and supposing that a few might have been sold, had they not been available for free: well, i think the free promotion i get from the shared material effectively translates into both more sales and greater attendance to shows in the long run. likewise, such is also promotion for my labels.

and the latter point is significant: most musicians make the bulk of their income from performing, not from album sales. yeah, i sell a fair number of vinyl and cds at shows, but the sales are merely a fraction of what i am getting paid to perform.

one can stand on principle, or one can consider the matter pragmatically. while it may be illegal for people to copy and download my material sans payment, i'm certainly not losing any money as a result--and neither are my labels.

funny that the people who get worked up about these matters aren't even musicians, and do not run labels.

 

[parmalee]

Originally Posted by Randwolf
P.S. Are you a musician, by any chance?

heh. i'm not sure that anyone who makes such myopic, binary assertions as this (below) would even be capable of creating music:

Regardless of the practical benefit, it is still theft; and it doesn't matter if that one song meant you payed for more. You still stole once and that makes you a thief and therefore unjust and therefore immoral and therefore an enemy of the state and therefore a virus of society. Simple, really.

 

[sly1]

Aren't you the one espousing democracy?:bugeye:


Thus, as I have stated, we must be absolutely ruthless upon those that flout the law. And piracy is a massive problem.

a massive problem to people who already have far too much and live far too grandiose lives for any normal person to sympathise with. Yes it IS a crime to steal but I would punish someone for stealing from the poor (taxes) far more hard than stealing from people who already have so much damn money they can literaly use it as toilet paper and not notice a change i their life style.

You are focusing on an insignificant theft crime when more severe theft cases that truely hurt people are off your radar because you are trying to make all theft cases equal and make the whole issue black and white when really....piracy really isnt putting people in the poor house....just back on stage.

 

[James R]

Sorry, but that's a factually wrong statement. If it were true, then people who pirate music would be charged with theft. But they aren't charged with theft; they're charged with copyright violations. Because copyright violation is not the same crime as theft.

Copyright violation is misuse of intellectual property without consent.

 

[darksidZz]

You are all idiots, piracy is wrong but then I consider downloading music BORROWING it because you likely will not keep the stuff for very long, ie. you get bored with it. I have no CDs from when I grew up, I would always loose them or give them away to friends. I never really was very good at holding onto anything for very long

Even with music downloading classified as piracy the logical mind must assume those who pirate will never pay for it, thus we conclude there can be no revenues lost. This then becomes a matter of jealousy because those who pay are JEALOUS there are those who did not. Purely speaking this is rather moot

Every human alive has violated copyright law at some point without even knowing it, should you all be arrested for it? Does it even matter? I think not.

PS I copyright the color Grey, the button in use on SciForums, the del.icio.us icon, I copyright a few pixel layouts too lulz

 

[Baron Max]

one can stand on principle, or one can consider the matter pragmatically. while it may be illegal for people to copy and download my material sans payment, i'm certainly not losing any money as a result--and neither are my labels.

And just tell me, sir, ....how in hell can you possibly know that?

...from my own experience at least. the thousands and thousands of copies of my albums which have been downloaded "illegally" would probably not have translated into actual sales.

And once again, ....how in hell can you possibly make that statement? On what evidence do you base that assertion? How can you possibly know what might have happened if...?

funny that the people who get worked up about these matters aren't even musicians, and do not run labels.

Ever hear of district attorneys? District courts? Supreme Court judges? Police forces? Copyright attorneys? Investors/stockholders? .... No, there's lots of people who care about this issue.

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

Every human alive has violated copyright law at some point without even knowing it, ...

That don't make it any less illegal.

Murder happens quite regularly in cities all over the country, but you certainly wouldn't use that as a defense for killing someone, would you? Or robbery?

Baron Max

 

[kurros]

That don't make it any less illegal.

Murder happens quite regularly in cities all over the country, but you certainly wouldn't use that as a defense for killing someone, would you? Or robbery?

Baron Max

You can't seriously be trying to compare this to violent crime can you? Besides, downloading music isn't illegal everywhere e.g. the Netherlands.

 

[Baron Max]

You can't seriously be trying to compare this to violent crime can you?

Where, oh, where, did you get that erroneous idea???? Can't you read? Or did you just read INTO my post what you wanted to read?

There was no comparison mentioned or implied or indicated or said. Where did you get the idea?

Baron Max

 

[Norsefire]

I don't need to be a musician to care about theft any more than I need to have a daughter to care that a young girl was raped. It's wrong either way; and good for you, parmalee, if you don't care, but there are musicians that do care and clearly the companies care. And so they get to decide, and they have decided that they do not want you pirating. And so you are in violation of their commands, and they rightfully own the property; and therefore you are stealing.

Piracy is theft, and theft is wrong; quit trying to justify yourselves, because you guys are pathetic.

 

[quadraphonics]

there are musicians that do care and clearly the companies care. And so they get to decide, and they have decided that they do not want you pirating.

True enough, but that decision would be a lot more compelling for the rest of us if these same musicians and companies weren't simultaneously spending lots of money to ensure that this same intellectual property is constantly made available to everyone, for free, in every nook and corner of the market. It's called "radio."

 

[Norsefire]

True enough, but that decision would be a lot more compelling for the rest of us if these same musicians and companies weren't simultaneously spending lots of money to ensure that this same intellectual property is constantly made available to everyone, for free, in every nook and corner of the market. It's called "radio."

Then listen to the radio.

 

[Randwolf]

... quit trying to justify yourselves, because you guys are pathetic.

Who is trying to justify anything here, Norse? Besides you of course...

You say listen to the radio... Unlike you, I remember when that was the only option - I still did not buy music until I had heard the songs. Do you?

I am simply pointing out that:

1. I think that casual copying of music does no harm, and may even provide benefit to the parties involved.
2. I buy music in the form of entire albums, I do this because it is more convenient, after I have listened to a song or two or attended a concert.
3. I do not care whether you think this is "bad".

Oh, and by the way, in case you missed it, I do not care, beyond correcting your "pathetic" posts. Clear? :bugeye:

 

[Norsefire]

You say listen to the radio... Unlike you, I remember when that was the only option - I still did not buy music until I had heard the songs. Do you?

Nope, but you can't steal the HDTV in Wal-mart in order to 'try it out' before you buy.

I think that casual copying of music does no harm, and may even provide benefit to the parties involved.

If they consent and allow you to, okay. If not, then don't pirate.

I buy music in the form of entire albums, I do this because it is more convenient, after I have listened to a song or two or attended a concert.

Nice! So go listen to the song in a manner that doesn't require stealing.

I do not care whether you think this is "bad".

Criminals often don't care what society thinks, anyways.

Oh, and by the way, in case you missed it, I do not care, beyond correcting your "pathetic" posts. Clear?

I don't expect criminals to care about their actions. That's what makes them criminals, and on the bottom of the hierarchy.

Alas, the noble are few in number.:shrug:

 

[spidergoat]

Musicians trying to make a living off copies of their music are lazy and unethical. That would be like me selling xerox copies of my drawings.

 

[Norsefire]

Musicians trying to make a living off copies of their music are lazy and unethical. That would be like me selling xerox copies of my drawings.

If you work hard on your drawings, wouldn't you want to give them to others?

 

[spidergoat]

I have posted them here, but I don't expect to sit on my lazy ass and rake in the dough from mere copies.

 

[Norsefire]

I have posted them here, but I don't expect to sit on my lazy ass and rake in the dough from mere copies.

You are raking in the dough by providing people your artwork that you worked hard on; it is your idea, your conception, that they enjoy and choose to buy.

Simple as that.

 

[parmalee]

I don't need to be a musician to care about theft any more than I need to have a daughter to care that a young girl was raped. It's wrong either way; and good for you, parmalee, if you don't care, but there are musicians that do care and clearly the companies care. And so they get to decide, and they have decided that they do not want you pirating. And so you are in violation of their commands, and they rightfully own the property; and therefore you are stealing.

Piracy is theft, and theft is wrong; quit trying to justify yourselves, because you guys are pathetic.

and where did i say that i pirate anything? can you read, norsefire? and show me these musicians who care.

yes, we are all pathetic, pathetic, unjust, immoral, enemies of the state and viruses upon society. grow up, norse--and perhaps you ought try to understand the things which you denounce (you know, since you're so much more open-minded than most of the members here) and perhaps give whatever book or idea you are so enamored with today a while to digest (so, you know, you can actually think about it). weren't you going on about the republic a week or so ago, so what is your favorite text today?