Physics question related to the geography of the Bay of Fundy?

[Dennis Tate]

If average ocean levels were to rise by ten centimeters.... .would
the multiplier effect of the geography of the Bay of Fundy continue?

The fact that the Bay of Fundy funnels tidal waters plus......
it is over 170 miles long, (274 kms), it produces high tide level that are tenX to fifteenX over the difference in tidal waters where I live.

So... could high tide levels near TRuro, N. S. to Moncton, N. B. be up by a meter or more if average ocean levels were to rise by ten centimeters?

 

[Dennis Tate]

Here is an image that will help to make more sense of this question.

 

[Dennis Tate]

This question helps to explain why I really like the alternative theory on stabilization of the climate put forward by a New Mexico biologist and coach.

Carl Cantrell :

"So how is our problem of continental drying causing global warming? It all has to do with vegetation and sunlight. When sun light hits a plant, it causes a process which we call photosynthesis where the energy from the sun light creates oxygen for us to breathe, water for us to drink, and is stored as sugar for plants and animals to use. When the same sun light hits the soil, all of its energy turns into heat and is radiated back into the atmosphere.. ."

"Therefore, the less vegetation you have on the planet, the more sunlight is being turned into heat and the warmer the planet becomes...."

"Just take a look at any satellite picture of the earth showing heat and you will see that our deserts are the warmest spots on the planet by far. More heat is being generated by just one of the top four or five deserts than by all of our cities combined.... "

"The truth is that you can do more to decrease global warming by just reducing the average temperature for the Sahara Desert by one or two degrees than if we humans completely quit using fossil fuels and returned to the cave…."

"So, how would you start working to resolve this problem? Easy, cool the deserts and get some vegetation growing on them as soon as possible. But the method is much more complex than that. You have to use the prevailing trade winds in relation to the deserts to get the best results as quickly as possible and it will be extremely expensive…."

"Then we build desalination plants along the coast near these water sheds and pipe water to the tops or ridges of the water sheds…"

"We need to start working on this as soon as possible because, if the planet reaches a point to where it is warming faster than our technology can possibly stop or reverse this warming trend, then our planet is lost and all life will cease to exist on this planet within a relatively short period of time. We will need to start with the largest and hottest deserts because cooling them will have the greatest benefit in the least time (Global Warming II by biologist Carl Cantrell)."

 

[exchemist]

If average ocean levels were to rise by ten centimeters.... .would
the multiplier effect of the geography of the Bay of Fundy continue?

The fact that the Bay of Fundy funnels tidal waters plus......
it is over 170 miles long, (274 kms), it produces high tide level that are tenX to fifteenX over the difference in tidal waters where I live.

So... could high tide levels near TRuro, N. S. to Moncton, N. B. be up by a meter or more if average ocean levels were to rise by ten centimeters?

I vote no. It is merely the ambient level that would rise by 10cm, not the amplitude of the wave.

 

[foghorn]

If average ocean levels were to rise by ten centimeters.... .would
the multiplier effect of the geography of the Bay of Fundy continue?

The fact that the Bay of Fundy funnels tidal waters plus......
it is over 170 miles long, (274 kms), it produces high tide level that are tenX to fifteenX over the difference in tidal waters where I live.

So... could high tide levels near TRuro, N. S. to Moncton, N. B. be up by a meter or more if average ocean levels were to rise by ten centimeters?

This may be of interest to you.

''Climate Change, Mean Sea Level and High Tides in the Bay of Fundy.'' pdf.
https://www.novascotia.ca/nse/climate-change/docs/CC_MSL_HighTides_BoF.pdf

Conclusions Even in the absence of climate change,the Bay o f Fundy–Gulf of Maine region can expect an increase in tidal high water of order0.3m over the next century(Fig.16).Combined with the influence of climate change, high water in the Bay of Fundy is predicted to rise on the order of 0.5 m over the next 50 years, and on the order of 1 m by the end of the century.

Authors:
David A. Greenberg1,*, Wade Blanchard2, Bruce Smith2 and Elaine Barrow3
1Fisheries and Oceans Canada, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada 2Department of Mathematics and Statistics, Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada 3University of Regina, Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

 

[Dennis Tate]

This may be of interest to you.

''Climate Change, Mean Sea Level and High Tides in the Bay of Fundy.'' pdf.
https://www.novascotia.ca/nse/climate-change/docs/CC_MSL_HighTides_BoF.pdf

Authors:
David A. Greenberg1,*, Wade Blanchard2, Bruce Smith2 and Elaine Barrow3
1Fisheries and Oceans Canada, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada 2Department of Mathematics and Statistics, Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada 3University of Regina, Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

Yes.. .thank you for that.....
I actually think that I may have read that report.....
Here is a statistic that I consider to be relevant in the larger picture.....

"At a symposium of the Union of Geodesy and geophysics, Dr. Pyyotor Shoumsky reported that the south polar ice cap was growing at a minimum rate of 293 cubic miles of ice annually. To put that number in perspective, Lake Erie contains only 109 cubic miles of water. Thus, a volume of ice forms on top of the existing ice at Antarctica each year which is almost three times the volume of water in Lake Erie!" (Expanded Discussion of The HAB Theory, Gershom Gale, Expanded Discussion on the HAB Theory.)

and....

"Let us consider Antarctica for a moment.
We have already seen that it is big. It has a land area of 5.5
million square miles, and is presently covered by something in excess
of seven million cubic miles of ice weighing an estimated 19
quadrillion tons (19 followed by 15 zeros). What worries the
theorists of earth-crust displacement is that this vast ice-cap is
remorselessly increasing in size and weight:'at the rate of 293 cubic
miles of ice each year--almost as much as if Lake Ontario were frozen
solidly annually and added to it.(Graham Hancock, Fingerprints of
the Gods, page 480).

If this statistic is true then this INCREASE of H2O on Antarctica could help to explain how ocean levels have remained relatively stable in spite of all the melting that is taking place on the world's glaciers as well as on the land based Greenland Ice Sheet.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

If average ocean levels were to rise by ten centimeters.... .would
the multiplier effect of the geography of the Bay of Fundy continue?

The fact that the Bay of Fundy funnels tidal waters plus......
it is over 170 miles long, (274 kms), it produces high tide level that are tenX to fifteenX over the difference in tidal waters where I live.

So... could high tide levels near TRuro, N. S. to Moncton, N. B. be up by a meter or more if average ocean levels were to rise by ten centimeters?

digging a channel may be a logical answer
roughly trans Canada highway 16 in a straight line all the way through
maybe some spill way
Tintamarre National Wildlife Area
maybe spill way concrete causeway right down to it and through the right hand side to out the end as a spill way into the sand with the concrete main channel cause way going past it on the right hand side all the way through
and turn it into a fast moving concreted cause way all the way through
and probably a large damn across dorchester cape to shut it off completely and allow in flow to maintain farming irrigation and back flow.
then
BUILD a DAMN from dorchester cape to hopewell cape
turn the damned area into a 5 star location resort area with sea side hotels and water activities.
but it would require government funding

in theory massively increasing the value & security from flooding of Moncton
all sorts of options sailing rowing etc etc
aqua culture

cliffton to masstown damn spill way and grow mussels & oysters
Fort Belcher
Lower Onslow, NS
Canada
would be a sea food megga town industry
mussels & oysters

Local grown shell fish would be a massive draw card to local grown food for local restaurants

 

[Dennis Tate]

I vote no. It is merely the ambient level that would rise by 10cm, not the amplitude of the wave.

You could well be correct.....
I actually hope that you are......
but I am not so sure because the two factors that lead to the Bay of Fundy producing the world's highest tides
would continue......... even if there were to be a significant rise in ocean levels?!

There is at least some evidence that indicates that the methane is beginning to be released from the permafrost in the ARctic.

 

[Dennis Tate]

digging a channel may be a logical answer
and turn it into a fast moving concreted cause way all the way through

That is EXACTLY what my online buddy Mervyn DePendleton proposed for the Isthmus of Chignecto......

(Mervyn DePendleton) :
"Well from an engineering point of view if it was a sure thing and time would allow the answer is not going to be try to air condition the Antarctic. I would think in terms of cutting a relief channel. That would be between Sackville and Amherst would be to excavate a canal that would only start to receive water when the tide is up approximately the half of normal height and this canal would have to continue sloping down and terminate in the Gulf of St. Lawrence across from PEI.

No doubt such an undertaking would get bad reviews from a lot of environmentalist but it could save some of the low level human habitation on the banks of the Bay of Fundy. When I visited the area I remember on the N.B. side that there was a lot of high ground as you went inland from the shore of the Bay.

Another approach would be to think like the Seaway Project where Cardinal and Morrisburg and lots of farms and places on the Canadian side of the St. Lawrence were moved and the land flooded with the power dam near Cornwall. The idea with Fundy would in the energy extraction view would be to tell all the low land people to hit it, your property is ruined. At the sea entrance somewhere more in the direction toward St. John to create a one way valve type mechanism. Let the tide water come rushing and don't let it leave right away. When the tide forces have receded then release the water through turbines to generate electricity. From half tide to low tide and back to just coming back again all the stored water has to be used. It might also be possible to get some energy out of the water when it is rushing in at high tide.

I'm sure some high math and some good engineers could get the greatest benefit possible from conditions we otherwise cannot control. Also do not give up on the earth getting ever hotter as it may well be cooling for a while before us. All the end of world alarmist like Paul Ehrlich and the peak oil we would be burning camel dung by 1999 alarmist have all failed miserably in their predictions. The big problem with all of them is that they are trying to tell us something about the future. Conservative minded people know the secret, if you want to predict the future get out in front of it and do something to shape the future with your own hands.

A good place to get better views of the climate future is here:" (Mervyn DePendleton)

 

[exchemist]

You could well be correct.....
I actually hope that you are......
but I am not so sure because the two factors that lead to the Bay of Fundy producing the world's highest tides
would continue......... even if there were to be a significant rise in ocean levels?!

There is at least some evidence that indicates that the methane is beginning to be released from the permafrost in the ARctic.

Yes, it seems from the paper Foghorn linked to be far more complicated, with other factors such as isostatic rebound and, most importantly, the effect on the natural resonance period of the Fundy Bay system which may move closer to that of the tides, which can lead to considerable amplification.

So It looks as if my simplistic idea about this was wrong. Interesting.

This may be of interest to you.

''Climate Change, Mean Sea Level and High Tides in the Bay of Fundy.'' pdf.
https://www.novascotia.ca/nse/climate-change/docs/CC_MSL_HighTides_BoF.pdf

Authors:
David A. Greenberg1,*, Wade Blanchard2, Bruce Smith2 and Elaine Barrow3
1Fisheries and Oceans Canada, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada 2Department of Mathematics and Statistics, Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada 3University of Regina, Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

This is very interesting and informative. Clearly a lot more factors involved than I had realised.

 

[Dennis Tate]

Yes, it seems from the paper Foghorn linked to be far more complicated, with other factors such as isostatic rebound and, most importantly, the effect on the natural resonance period of the Fundy Bay system which may move closer to that of the tides, which can lead to considerable amplification.

So It looks as if my simplistic idea about this was wrong. Interesting.

This is very interesting and informative. Clearly a lot more factors involved than I had realised.

I plead guilty to having a sarcastic streak in me......
and I do know that both myself as well as my online friend from New Mexico.....
we really should have been more polite if we really had wanted to have more of a positive impact on the
judges of our submissions for the Virgin Earth Challenge back in 2007. You can see how the geography of Nova Scotia has
affected how I personally look at this question.

"Dr James Hansen, Director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies: "I think we have a very brief window of opportunity to deal with climate change ... no longer than a decade, at the most. This is why I am supporting the Virgin Earth Challenge as a judge; we must explore all means, both known and unknown, to help alleviate this crisis."

Dennis Tate
March 15, 2007

Sir Richard Branson
Virgin Earth Challenge
120 Campden Hill Road
London W8 7AR
United Kingdom

Dear Mr. Branson:

It is my firm belief that the number one technological device to reduce atmospheric greenhouse gases has already been invented. It is the tree.

What is desperately needed at this time is not necessarily a new mechanical device but instead a paradigm shift in economic theory regarding monetary policy. We require a readily understandable explanation on how leaders in business and government can direct not only millions, but actually trillions of dollars of investment into combating global warming.


One of the most effective practical methods that could be put into place in the least amount of time would be dozens of the largest possible desalinization plants all along the Mediterranean and Red Seas. Huge quantities of fresh water could be dripped onto the Sinai and Sahara deserts and voila, well chosen species of newly planted fast growing trees could soon change the color of these relatively desolate areas, significantly reduce atmospheric CO2, positively affect local weather patterns and at the same time significantly counterbalance the increases in worldwide ocean levels as the polar ice caps melt. This will buy us some extra time and thus expand the "very brief window of opportunity to deal with climate change."

So who is going to finance the construction of all these massive installations not to mention the planting of all those seedling trees?

I believe that it is possible for you to do this yourself Mr. Branson. You have already created a Virgin currency unit/coupon which has astonishing long term potential. My wife Maria Jose just returned from a two week trip to the British VIRGIN Islands. It is theoretically possible to link your Virgin coupon with the national currency of a small nation and you could soon be playing around in macro-economics. Considering the volume of business being done through your Virgin Group I would submit that you already are.
.....

Here is some background information on that:

https://www.virgin.com/about-virgin/virgin-group/news/virgin-earth-challenge

"Today, Sir Richard Branson and Al Gore announced
the setting up of a new Global science and technology
prize – The Virgin Earth Challenge – in the belief that
history has shown that prizes of this nature encourage technological advancements for the good of mankind.
The Virgin Earth Challenge will award $25 million to
the individual or group who are able to demonstrate
a commercially viable design which will result in the
net removal of anthropogenic, atmospheric greenhouse
gases each year for at least ten years without
countervailing harmful effects. This removal must
have long term effects and contribute materially to
the stability of the Earth’s climate."

If you would like to view my full submission online....
and Mr. Carl Cantrell's co-submission along with mine.. .just google the title....


"My two somewhat humorous submissions for $25 million Virgin Earth Challenge."

.... and it should pop right up?

 

[exchemist]

I plead guilty to having a sarcastic streak in me......
and I do know that both myself as well as my online friend from New Mexico.....
we really should have been more polite if we really had wanted to have more of a positive impact on the
judges of our submissions for the Virgin Earth Challenge back in 2007. You can see how the geography of Nova Scotia has
affected how I personally look at this question.






Here is some background information on that:

https://www.virgin.com/about-virgin/virgin-group/news/virgin-earth-challenge



If you would like to view my full submission online....
and Mr. Carl Cantrell's co-submission along with mine.. .just google the title....


"My two somewhat humorous submissions for $25 million Virgin Earth Challenge."

.... and it should pop right up?

Who is this Cantrell person?

 

[Dennis Tate]

Who is this Cantrell person?

He is a New Mexico biologist and bicycling coach who is retired or at least semi-retired now.

 

[Dennis Tate]

If I am not mistaken.....
the city in China that would tend to be most interested in a plan to attempt to keep ocean levels more stable might be Shanghai because like the Bay of Fundy or Anchorage Alaska they also have a pretty extreme low tide to high tide formula.

https://tides4fishing.com/as/china/shanghai

The tidal coefficient today is 84, a high value and therefore the range of tides and currents will also be high. At noon the tidal coefficient drops to 75. The day ends with a tidal coefficient of 67.

The heights today are 3.8m, 0.4m, 3.4m and 0.5m referenced to Mean Lower Low Water (MLLW).
We can compare these levels with the maximum high tide recorded in the tide tables for Shanghai which is of 4.4m and a minimum height of 0.0m.

 

[Dennis Tate]

I vote no. It is merely the ambient level that would rise by 10cm, not the amplitude of the wave.

I sure do hope that you are correct.....
because if high tides were to rise by one meter in the eastern area of the Bay of Fundy, in the event of average ocean levels rising by ten cms then......
a significant percentage of the top soil of the Isthmus of Chignecto would likely liquify and wash into the Bay of Fundy and probably destroy the fishery there not to mention the damage to lots of valuable real estate????

Because the Bay of Fundy is more than a hundred and seventy miles long, high tide waters CANNOT completely drain before more high tide waters pile in on top of them. This is why The Bay of Fundy has the world's highest tides and Anchorage, Alaska has the world's second highest tides for similar reasons.



High tides threaten low-lying Isthmus of Chignecto

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/i...reaten-low-lying-isthmus-of-chignecto-247312/

 

[Dennis Tate]

So far... the ADDITION of H2O to central Antarctica may have kept ocean levels relatively stable for decades.....
actually even for centuries???????

"At a symposium of the Union of Geodesy and geophysics, Dr. Pyyotor Shoumsky reported that the south polar ice cap was growing at a minimum rate of 293 cubic miles of ice annually. To put that number in perspective, Lake Erie contains only 109 cubic miles of water. Thus, a volume of ice forms on top of the existing ice at Antarctica each year which is almost three times the volume of water in Lake Erie!" (Expanded Discussion of The HAB Theory, Gershom Gale, Expanded Discussion on the HAB Theory.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amundsen–Scott_South_Pole_Station

"This is South Pole Station Destination Alpha It sits on hydraulic rams to prevent it from being buried under the ice, which grows at 5 inches a year."

 

[foghorn]

Double posted.

 

[foghorn]

So far... the ADDITION of H2O to central Antarctica may have kept ocean levels relatively stable for decades.....
actually even for centuries???????

"At a symposium of the Union of Geodesy and geophysics, Dr. Pyyotor Shoumsky reported that the south polar ice cap was growing at a minimum rate of 293 cubic miles of ice annually. To put that number in perspective, Lake Erie contains only 109 cubic miles of water. Thus, a volume of ice forms on top of the existing ice at Antarctica each year which is almost three times the volume of water in Lake Erie!" (Expanded Discussion of The HAB Theory, Gershom Gale, Expanded Discussion on the HAB Theory.)

"This is South Pole Station Destination Alpha It sits on hydraulic rams to prevent it from being buried under the ice, which grows at 5 inches a year."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amundsen–Scott_South_Pole_Station

Where do both of those quotes come from? They do not appear in the link you provide.


For those here interested in the HAB theory mentioned in Dennis' quote …

The HAB Theory is a 1976 science fiction novel by American author Allan W. Eckert. The novel is from the apocalyptic fiction subgenre. Eckert believed that the real-world facts and conclusions he quoted in the novel, were worthy of further exploration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_HAB_Theory

 

[Bells]

Mod Note

So far... the ADDITION of H2O to central Antarctica may have kept ocean levels relatively stable for decades.....
actually even for centuries???????



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amundsen–Scott_South_Pole_Station

While the image is from the wiki page, the quotes are not.

Can you please provide a source for the quotes you are posting?

A quick google search saw a few results, all seemingly from you or people who post just like you... Including one on a google chat group where you made some fairly wacky claims.

You have provided several unsourced quotes in this thread. Please provide links to those quotes.

 

[Dennis Tate]

Mod Note



While the image is from the wiki page, the quotes are not.

Can you please provide a source for the quotes you are posting?

A quick google search saw a few results, all seemingly from you or people who post just like you... Including one on a google chat group where you made some fairly wacky claims.

You have provided several unsourced quotes in this thread. Please provide links to those quotes.

It seems that this topic scares some people who are influential in what the mainstream media is willing to deal with in front of a large audience.

This is one of the best up to date statements related to this that I have found so far.

NASA Study: Mass Gains of Antarctic Ice Sheet Greater than Losses
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddar...s-of-antarctic-ice-sheet-greater-than-losses/

According to the new analysis of satellite data, the Antarctic ice sheet showed a net gain of 112 billion tons of ice a year from 1992 to 2001. That net gain slowed to 82 billion tons of ice per year between 2003 and 2008."

Just so that you understand the context.....
that Google discussion that you refer to has me.... quoting Mr.Maxime Bernier.... and then I disagree with him and suggest that his People's Party of Canada go off in a very different direction on the climate than he suggests.



The following title is quoted from Mr. Maxime Bernier:

"Global Warming and Environment: Rejecting Alarmism and Focusing on Concrete Improvements"

... but my response to him suggest that his new political party go off in a very different direction than he has written up.

http://www.politicalforum.com/index...and-focusing-on-concrete-improvements.557480/

by me... DennisTate on that forum.



Since 2007 I've been promoting an alternative theory on stabilization of the climate. I take climate change itself very seriously, especially the threat of rising ocean levels but......... I regard a Carbon Tax or Cap and Trade System as a colossal waste of money, time, energy and talent. I believe that only nations with lots of desert are in a position to do what needs to be done to address the threat of rising ocean levels.

If Canadians were aware of how much H2O was being added to the central region of Antarctica they would know that a Carbon Tax is a joke played on an underinformed population.
"At a symposium of the Union of Geodesy and geophysics, Dr. Pyyotor Shoumsky reported that the south polar ice cap was growing at a minimum rate of 293 cubic miles of ice annually. To put that number in perspective, Lake Erie contains only 109 cubic miles of water. Thus, a volume of ice forms on top of the existing ice at Antarctica each year which is almost three times the volume of water in Lake Erie!" (Expanded Discussion of The HAB Theory, Gershom Gale, Expanded Discussion on the HAB Theory.)


......

Mega scale desalination of ocean water in Israel, Jordan, Australia, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, California, Tunisia, Morocco and in other nations with lots of desert is the response to climate change that I recommend.

......

We Canadians attempt to be reasonably good neighbours so after visiting Truro, N. S., and
Moncton, N. B., so many times in my sixty years I find myself asking questions that people in
Ottawa don't seem to be looking at in a very objective manner.

If average ocean levels rose by eight to ten cms (3 or 4 inches) could high tide...

... rise by one meter in the Isthmus of Chignecto in Nova Scotia, Canada?
This question is logical because the geography of Canada's Bay of Fundy produces the world's highest tides. In my part of Nova Scotia in Guysborough County there is very little funnelling of tidal waters......... so high tide is only about one to one point five meters above low tide.

In the eastern area of the Bay of Fundy high tide levels are up by ten to fifteen meters.

.......
Mr. Mervyn DePendleton came up with a brilliant and practical possible solution to the situation faced in the eastern area of the Bay of Fundy where tides are the most extreme.

(Mervyn DePendleton) :
"Well from an engineering point of view if it was a sure thing and time would allow the answer is not going to be try to air condition the Antarctic. I would think in terms of cutting a relief channel. That would be between Sackville and Amherst would be to excavate a canal that would only start to receive water when the tide is up approximately the half of normal height and this canal would have to continue sloping down and terminate in the Gulf of St. Lawrence across from PEI.

No doubt such an undertaking would get bad reviews from a lot of environmentalist but it could save some of the low level human habitation on the banks of the Bay of Fundy. When I visited the area I remember on the N.B. side that there was a lot of high ground as you went inland from the shore of the Bay.

Another approach would be to think like the Seaway Project where Cardinal and Morrisburg and lots of farms and places on the Canadian side of the St. Lawrence were moved and the land flooded with the power dam near Cornwall. The idea with Fundy would in the energy extraction view would be to tell all the low land people to hit it, your property is ruined. At the sea entrance somewhere more in the direction toward St. John to create a one way valve type mechanism. Let the tide water come rushing and don't let it leave right away. When the tide forces have receded then release the water through turbines to generate electricity. From half tide to low tide and back to just coming back again all the stored water has to be used. It might also be possible to get some energy out of the water when it is rushing in at high tide.

I'm sure some high math and some good engineers could get the greatest benefit possible from conditions we otherwise cannot control. Also do not give up on the earth getting ever hotter as it may well be cooling for a while before us. All the end of world alarmist like Paul Ehrlich and the peak oil we would be burning camel dung by 1999 alarmist have all failed miserably in their predictions. The big problem with all of them is that they are trying to tell us something about the future. Conservative minded people know the secret, if you want to predict the future get out in front of it and do something to shape the future with your own hands.

A good place to get better views of the climate future is here:" (Mervyn DePendleton)