One God, One Message

[exchemist]

Since a mere prophet couldn't pay for their sins. So Jesus had to be elevated to an avatar of what supposedly created them, even if that meant placing much emphasis on the Old Testament "us / our" -- literally accepting a plurality of the Godhead.

Isaiah 53:5: “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds, we are healed.”
_

He was considered the Messiah though, so not just a prophet. And all three synoptic gospels contain the Transfiguration, in which God the Father describes Jesus explicitly as his Son. So Jesus was portrayed as the Son of God right from the start.

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

A lot of the New Testament stories were basically copied from the Old or from pagan sources.

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

He was considered the Messiah though, so not just a prophet. And all three synoptic gospels contain the Transfiguration, in which God the Father describes Jesus explicitly as his Son. So Jesus was portrayed as the Son of God right from the start.

That's one reason those gospels were chosen out of approximately 70 others.

 

[C C]

He was considered the Messiah though, so not just a prophet. And all three synoptic gospels contain the Transfiguration, in which God the Father describes Jesus explicitly as his Son. So Jesus was portrayed as the Son of God right from the start.

Yes. The original Jewish cult revolving around Jesus in the very late part of the Second Temple period fed off the newest refinements to the Messiah concept. Leaving texts that the gentile Christians could appeal to later. (With even occasional passages existing in the OT that the Church could construe as _X_). But for the rest of the Jews...

Understanding Jewish Tradition - The Jewish View of the Messiah
https://israelmyglory.org/article/understanding-jewish-tradition-the-jewish-view-of-the-messiah/

EXCERPT: In the time of the second Temple (Herod’s Temple), messianic hope was very strong. The Jewish people looked for a political Messiah who would deliver them from the iron heel of Roman occupation and oppression. It was during this time that Jesus Christ lived, but according to Jewish teaching He did not fit the description of the promised Messiah. For the Jew, Messiah was to be from the family of David, a military and political leader who would rule as king, and one who would bring everlasting peace to Israel. Jesus, on the other hand, was born into a poor family. He was never the king of Israel, nor did He bring peace to Israel but was crucified by the Romans.

[...] Traditional Judaism (Orthodox and Conservative) never viewed the Messiah as a God-Man, but only a man with unusual power from God who will manifest the lities of a prophet, priest and king in Israel. They have described the Messiah in a dual role. First would come the “suffering servant (Messiah ben Joseph), who would die in battle against the enemies of Israel, preparing the way for the second Messiah. The second Messiah would be a descendant of King David (Messiah ben David), and would redeem Israel and rule over her at the end of days. Messiah ben David will secure the land of Israel for the Jewish people, bring peace and blessing to Israel and the world, rebuild the Temple on its historical site, and reinstitute the sacrificial system.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Who Invented the Idea of a Suffering Messiah?

https://ehrmanblog.org/who-invented-the-idea-of-a-suffering-messiah

EXCERPT: Why, as a highly religious Jew, did Paul originally persecute the Christians before he himself joined their ranks? It appears to have been for one reason only: the Christians were saying that Jesus was God’s special chosen one, his beloved son, the messiah. But for the pre-Christian Paul it was quite clear. Jesus was not anything like God’s chosen one, the one selected to do his will on earth. He did not enjoy God’s blessing. Just the opposite. He was under God’s curse. Evidence? He was hung on a tree.

But why would that be a problem? Wasn’t the messiah supposed to suffer horribly for the sins of others and be raised from the dead? Not according to ancient Jews. On the contrary, the messiah was not supposed to be killed at all. It is at this point that we need to consider what ancient Jews, including the pre-Christian Paul, thought about the messiah...
_

 

[exchemist]

Yes. The original Jewish cult revolving around Jesus in the very late part of the Second Temple period fed off the newest refinements to the Messiah concept. Leaving texts that the gentile Christians could appeal to later. (With even occasional passages existing in the OT that the Church could construe as _X_). But for the rest of the Jews...

Understanding Jewish Tradition - The Jewish View of the Messiah
https://israelmyglory.org/article/understanding-jewish-tradition-the-jewish-view-of-the-messiah/

EXCERPT: In the time of the second Temple (Herod’s Temple), messianic hope was very strong. The Jewish people looked for a political Messiah who would deliver them from the iron heel of Roman occupation and oppression. It was during this time that Jesus Christ lived, but according to Jewish teaching He did not fit the description of the promised Messiah. For the Jew, Messiah was to be from the family of David, a military and political leader who would rule as king, and one who would bring everlasting peace to Israel. Jesus, on the other hand, was born into a poor family. He was never the king of Israel, nor did He bring peace to Israel but was crucified by the Romans.

[...] Traditional Judaism (Orthodox and Conservative) never viewed the Messiah as a God-Man, but only a man with unusual power from God who will manifest the lities of a prophet, priest and king in Israel. They have described the Messiah in a dual role. First would come the “suffering servant (Messiah ben Joseph), who would die in battle against the enemies of Israel, preparing the way for the second Messiah. The second Messiah would be a descendant of King David (Messiah ben David), and would redeem Israel and rule over her at the end of days. Messiah ben David will secure the land of Israel for the Jewish people, bring peace and blessing to Israel and the world, rebuild the Temple on its historical site, and reinstitute the sacrificial system.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Who Invented the Idea of a Suffering Messiah?

https://ehrmanblog.org/who-invented-the-idea-of-a-suffering-messiah

EXCERPT: Why, as a highly religious Jew, did Paul originally persecute the Christians before he himself joined their ranks? It appears to have been for one reason only: the Christians were saying that Jesus was God’s special chosen one, his beloved son, the messiah. But for the pre-Christian Paul it was quite clear. Jesus was not anything like God’s chosen one, the one selected to do his will on earth. He did not enjoy God’s blessing. Just the opposite. He was under God’s curse. Evidence? He was hung on a tree.

But why would that be a problem? Wasn’t the messiah supposed to suffer horribly for the sins of others and be raised from the dead? Not according to ancient Jews. On the contrary, the messiah was not supposed to be killed at all. It is at this point that we need to consider what ancient Jews, including the pre-Christian Paul, thought about the messiah...
_

Oh sure, hence no doubt all the antagonism described in the gospels and the bitter complaints that Jesus did not fit the mould of the hoped for Messiah who they expected to liberate them from their Roman overlords. Instead they got, "My kingdom is not of this world" etc.

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

…a direction set by those same fathers of the church, based on what they considered authentic.

No, really based on their own desires, not on authenticity. Many other gospels were considered authentic, but did not tell the story that was desired.

 

[ajanta]

However, most communities within the Abrahamic religions, including the followers of Prophet Muhammad, have gone astray. Each group considers itself to be on the right path while regarding the others as being in error.

First, let me mention an important verse from the Qur’an:

“Do people think that they will be left alone because they say, ‘We believe,’ and will not be tested? Indeed, We tested those before them. So Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars. Or do those who commit evil deeds think that they can outrun Us? Evil indeed is what they judge.” (Qur’an 29:2–4)

Denying Prophets and Messengers and What Should Be Done in Response​

Surah At-Tawbah (9:84) states:

“And never pray over any of them who dies, nor stand at his grave. Indeed, they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger and died while they were defiantly disobedient.”

Among the Abrahamic religions, different communities hold different beliefs regarding the number of prophets and messengers.

Therefore, let us answer this question in the light of the verses of the revealed scriptures. Whenever I discuss religious matters, I do not give answers based on personal speculation. Such answers should be given clearly in the light of the verses of the heavenly books.

The community during the time of Prophet Joseph(Yusuf) believed that after him Allah would not send any more messengers. According to their belief, the number of prophets and messengers was therefore different. The Qur’an later recorded verses against this belief:

“And certainly Joseph came to you before with clear proofs, but you remained in doubt concerning what he brought to you. Then when he died, you said, ‘Allah will never send a messenger after him.’ Thus Allah leaves astray whoever is a transgressor and doubter.” (Surah Al-Mu’min 40:34)

Now let us turn to the Jews. According to Deuteronomy 4:2, they believed that nothing in their scripture could ever be abrogated or invalidated. In other words, they believed that whatever had been revealed in their Book would remain in force forever.

Deuteronomy 13:1–5 also states that if any prophet came with teachings contrary to God’s commandments, he was a false prophet and should be put to death.

Later, Allah abrogated many commandments of the Torah and, as a test, sent Prophet Jesus (‘Isa) with new rules and teachings. Both the Gospel and the Qur’an contain verses regarding this. According to the Qur’an, Jesus made lawful certain things that had previously been forbidden in the Torah:

“And (I have come) confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. So fear Allah and obey me. Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path.” (Surah Aal ‘Imran 3:50–52)

The Gospel also testifies that Jesus permitted matters that had previously been restricted under the Torah. For example:

(Matthew 12:1–4)

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.” Jesus replied by referring to David and his companions eating the consecrated bread, which according to the Law was reserved for the priests.

According to Leviticus 24:5–9, this sacred bread was intended only for priests, and Exodus 28:1–3 identifies Aaron and his sons as priests.

Yet the Jews accepted only certain parts of their scripture:

“Do you then believe in part of the Scripture and disbelieve in part?” (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:85)

In other words, they did not accept that the Almighty Creator (El Shaddai, Genesis 35:11) has the authority to abrogate previous commandments if He wills.
As a consequence, the Jews rejected Jesus, Muhammad, and many other prophets. They also killed many prophets, messengers. Therefore, the number of prophets and messengers recognized by them differs from that recognized by others. Both the Gospel and the Qur’an contain passages criticizing this attitude.

The Qur’an states:

“And when it is said to them, ‘Believe in what Allah has revealed,’ they say, ‘We believe only in what was revealed to us,’ and they disbelieve in what came afterward, although it is the truth confirming what is with them. Say, ‘Then why did you kill the prophets of Allah before, if you were indeed believers?’” (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:91)

Another verse says:

“And We certainly took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent to them many messengers. Whenever there came to them a messenger with what they themselves did not desire, a group of them they denied and another group they killed.” (Surah Al-Ma’idah 5:70)

The Gospel of Luke records:

“Woe to you experts in the law, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them.

So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs.

Because of this, God in His wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’

Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,

from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.” (Luke 11:46–51)

The Qur’an also says:

“And We certainly gave Moses the Scripture and followed him up with messengers. We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear signs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that whenever a messenger came to you with what your souls did not desire, you became arrogant? Some you denied and some you killed.” (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:87)

Concerning the Followers of Muhammad​

Now let us turn to the followers of Muhammad.

According to the author’s view, because of Surah Al-Ahzab 33:40, they do not accept any prophet or messenger after Muhammad. Like the people who rejected later messengers after Joseph, they believe that no further messenger can come after Muhammad.

They also do not accept the possibility that anything within their scripture could later be superseded or abrogated. Yet, according to the Qur’an itself, Allah clearly states that He has the power to abrogate or cause verses to be forgotten:

“If We ever abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, We replace it with a better or similar one. Do you not know that Allah is Most Capable of everything?” (Qur’an 2:106)

According to this argument, if a verse contains information about a final prophet, Allah could still replace or supersede it if He wished, since nothing is difficult for Him.

Furthermore, Allah states:

“And if We willed, We could surely take away that which We revealed(quran) to you; then you would not find for yourself against Us any protector.” (Surah Al-Isra 17:86)

The argument presented here is that many followers of Muhammad, like the Jews before them, accept some parts of their scripture while failing to acknowledge the full implications of Allah’s absolute power, including His ability to supersede previous revelations.

The Rejection of Baha’u’llah, the Bab, and Other Claimants​

According to the author’s argument, as a result of the belief that no prophet can come after Muhammad, many followers of Muhammad rejected Baha’u’llah, the Bab, and various other claimants to prophethood. Consequently, the number of prophets and messengers they recognize differs from that recognized by other groups.

The author further argues that, just as the Jews regarded Jesus and Muhammad as false claimants, many Muslims similarly regarded Musaylimah and other claimants as false prophets.
The author cites a passage from the Kitab-i-Aqdas of Bahai faith:

اذكروا الشّيخ الّذي سمّي بمحمّد قبل حسن وكان من اعلم العلمآء في عصره لمّا ظهر الحقّ اعرض عنه هو وامثاله واقبل الى الله من ينقّي القمح والشّعير. وكان يكتب على زعمه احكام الله في اللّيل والنّهار ولمّا اتى المختار ما نفعه حرف منها لو نفعه لم يعرض عن وجه به انارت وجوه المقرّبين. لو امنتم بالله حين ظهوره ما اعرض عنه النّاس وما ورد علينا ما ترونه اليوم اتّقوا الله ولا تكوننّ من الغافلين

English translation:

“Call to mind the Shaykh who was named Muhammad-Hasan, who was counted among the most learned divines of his age. When the Truth was made manifest, he and those like him turned away from Him, while one who sifted wheat and barley turned toward God and accepted Him.
Though day and night he occupied himself with recording what he considered to be the laws and ordinances of God, when the One Who is the Unconstrained appeared, not a single letter of all that knowledge benefited him. Had it benefited him, he would not have turned away from a Countenance by whose light the faces of God's favored ones were illumined.
Had you believed in God when He revealed Himself, the people would not have turned away from Him, nor would the things you witness today have befallen Us. Fear God and do not be among the heedless.” (Kitab-i-Aqdas, Verse 166)

 

[exchemist]

First, let me mention an important verse from the Qur’an:

Denying Prophets and Messengers and What Should Be Done in Response​

Surah At-Tawbah (9:84) states:


Among the Abrahamic religions, different communities hold different beliefs regarding the number of prophets and messengers.

Therefore, let us answer this question in the light of the verses of the revealed scriptures. Whenever I discuss religious matters, I do not give answers based on personal speculation. Such answers should be given clearly in the light of the verses of the heavenly books.

The community during the time of Prophet Joseph(Yusuf) believed that after him Allah would not send any more messengers. According to their belief, the number of prophets and messengers was therefore different. The Qur’an later recorded verses against this belief:


Now let us turn to the Jews. According to Deuteronomy 4:2, they believed that nothing in their scripture could ever be abrogated or invalidated. In other words, they believed that whatever had been revealed in their Book would remain in force forever.

Deuteronomy 13:1–5 also states that if any prophet came with teachings contrary to God’s commandments, he was a false prophet and should be put to death.

Later, Allah abrogated many commandments of the Torah and, as a test, sent Prophet Jesus (‘Isa) with new rules and teachings. Both the Gospel and the Qur’an contain verses regarding this. According to the Qur’an, Jesus made lawful certain things that had previously been forbidden in the Torah:


The Gospel also testifies that Jesus permitted matters that had previously been restricted under the Torah. For example:

(Matthew 12:1–4)

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.” Jesus replied by referring to David and his companions eating the consecrated bread, which according to the Law was reserved for the priests.

According to Leviticus 24:5–9, this sacred bread was intended only for priests, and Exodus 28:1–3 identifies Aaron and his sons as priests.

Yet the Jews accepted only certain parts of their scripture:


In other words, they did not accept that the Almighty Creator (El Shaddai, Genesis 35:11) has the authority to abrogate previous commandments if He wills.
As a consequence, the Jews rejected Jesus, Muhammad, and many other prophets. They also killed many prophets, messengers. Therefore, the number of prophets and messengers recognized by them differs from that recognized by others. Both the Gospel and the Qur’an contain passages criticizing this attitude.

The Qur’an states:


Another verse says:


The Gospel of Luke records:








The Qur’an also says:

Concerning the Followers of Muhammad​

Now let us turn to the followers of Muhammad.

According to the author’s view, because of Surah Al-Ahzab 33:40, they do not accept any prophet or messenger after Muhammad. Like the people who rejected later messengers after Joseph, they believe that no further messenger can come after Muhammad.

They also do not accept the possibility that anything within their scripture could later be superseded or abrogated. Yet, according to the Qur’an itself, Allah clearly states that He has the power to abrogate or cause verses to be forgotten:


According to this argument, if a verse contains information about a final prophet, Allah could still replace or supersede it if He wished, since nothing is difficult for Him.

Furthermore, Allah states:


The argument presented here is that many followers of Muhammad, like the Jews before them, accept some parts of their scripture while failing to acknowledge the full implications of Allah’s absolute power, including His ability to supersede previous revelations.

The Rejection of Baha’u’llah, the Bab, and Other Claimants​

According to the author’s argument, as a result of the belief that no prophet can come after Muhammad, many followers of Muhammad rejected Baha’u’llah, the Bab, and various other claimants to prophethood. Consequently, the number of prophets and messengers they recognize differs from that recognized by other groups.

The author further argues that, just as the Jews regarded Jesus and Muhammad as false claimants, many Muslims similarly regarded Musaylimah and other claimants as false prophets.
The author cites a passage from the Kitab-i-Aqdas of Bahai faith:


English translation:

This reads like AI.

 

[Pinball1970]

First, let me mention an important verse from the Qur’an:

Denying Prophets and Messengers and What Should Be Done in Response​

Surah At-Tawbah (9:84) states:


Among the Abrahamic religions, different communities hold different beliefs regarding the number of prophets and messengers.

Therefore, let us answer this question in the light of the verses of the revealed scriptures. Whenever I discuss religious matters, I do not give answers based on personal speculation. Such answers should be given clearly in the light of the verses of the heavenly books.

The community during the time of Prophet Joseph(Yusuf) believed that after him Allah would not send any more messengers. According to their belief, the number of prophets and messengers was therefore different. The Qur’an later recorded verses against this belief:


Now let us turn to the Jews. According to Deuteronomy 4:2, they believed that nothing in their scripture could ever be abrogated or invalidated. In other words, they believed that whatever had been revealed in their Book would remain in force forever.

Deuteronomy 13:1–5 also states that if any prophet came with teachings contrary to God’s commandments, he was a false prophet and should be put to death.

Later, Allah abrogated many commandments of the Torah and, as a test, sent Prophet Jesus (‘Isa) with new rules and teachings. Both the Gospel and the Qur’an contain verses regarding this. According to the Qur’an, Jesus made lawful certain things that had previously been forbidden in the Torah:


The Gospel also testifies that Jesus permitted matters that had previously been restricted under the Torah. For example:

(Matthew 12:1–4)

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.” Jesus replied by referring to David and his companions eating the consecrated bread, which according to the Law was reserved for the priests.

According to Leviticus 24:5–9, this sacred bread was intended only for priests, and Exodus 28:1–3 identifies Aaron and his sons as priests.

Yet the Jews accepted only certain parts of their scripture:


In other words, they did not accept that the Almighty Creator (El Shaddai, Genesis 35:11) has the authority to abrogate previous commandments if He wills.
As a consequence, the Jews rejected Jesus, Muhammad, and many other prophets. They also killed many prophets, messengers. Therefore, the number of prophets and messengers recognized by them differs from that recognized by others. Both the Gospel and the Qur’an contain passages criticizing this attitude.

The Qur’an states:


Another verse says:


The Gospel of Luke records:








The Qur’an also says:

Concerning the Followers of Muhammad​

Now let us turn to the followers of Muhammad.

According to the author’s view, because of Surah Al-Ahzab 33:40, they do not accept any prophet or messenger after Muhammad. Like the people who rejected later messengers after Joseph, they believe that no further messenger can come after Muhammad.

They also do not accept the possibility that anything within their scripture could later be superseded or abrogated. Yet, according to the Qur’an itself, Allah clearly states that He has the power to abrogate or cause verses to be forgotten:


According to this argument, if a verse contains information about a final prophet, Allah could still replace or supersede it if He wished, since nothing is difficult for Him.

Furthermore, Allah states:


The argument presented here is that many followers of Muhammad, like the Jews before them, accept some parts of their scripture while failing to acknowledge the full implications of Allah’s absolute power, including His ability to supersede previous revelations.

The Rejection of Baha’u’llah, the Bab, and Other Claimants​

According to the author’s argument, as a result of the belief that no prophet can come after Muhammad, many followers of Muhammad rejected Baha’u’llah, the Bab, and various other claimants to prophethood. Consequently, the number of prophets and messengers they recognize differs from that recognized by other groups.

The author further argues that, just as the Jews regarded Jesus and Muhammad as false claimants, many Muslims similarly regarded Musaylimah and other claimants as false prophets.
The author cites a passage from the Kitab-i-Aqdas of Bahai faith:


English translation:

Do you have a question? We are not interested in sermons.

 

[ajanta]

Do you have a question? We are not interested in sermons.

I have no questions for people who are not interested in sermons. If I had known that beforehand, I probably would not have written all this.

 

[ajanta]

This reads like AI.

In fact, I used AI to translate from Bengali to English in order to save time.