On your toes!

[willakitty]

My brother and I have been at it again! This time the argument began innocently enough with the mention of a post I'd read on the futility of religion. A clever remark, it expressed the needlessness to subscribe to one religion when there's always another to damn you to hell for nonbelief...I went on the add that most religions were the same in essence anyway, because they all say one thing when it comes down to it:
DO THE RIGHT THING AND YOU'LL GO TO A REALLY COOL PLACE WHEN YOU DIE.
Of course, he had to put his two cents into it by replying that, "All religions are the same to you because you've never been anywhere but here." Well, I couldn't let him get away with it. I went thru all sorts of arguments...
a)EVERYONE IS INSTILLED WITH A BASIC SENSE OF WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG.
"How do you know that what you consider 'right' is the same as what others consider it to be?"
Listen here, sonny, it is wrong to kill people. Everyone knows that much. He talks freely of African tribes that headhunt and participate in cannibalism. Do they ever look at one another and feel guilty? Obviously it isn't "wrong" to them.
b)THE SALEM WITCH TRIALS WERE WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.
The whole event was nothing but deceit, jealousy, and bloodthirsty revenge(according to the play, anyway). The only reason no one spoke out against it all was abject terror. And the means of getting to the "truth" were despicable and crooked. The bishops did a bad thing in the name of a good one.
"The bishops didn't know that the people were being picked off one at a time until it was too late. How can you do something wrong if you don't know it's wrong?"
c)THE AZTECS, DAMMIT!
"South American tribes sacrificed people for their religion. That's killing and they didn't feel it was wrong."
The Aztecs were a bloodthirsty people that had many ritualistic sacrifices to please their dieties. But, there were also the Mayans and the Incans who didn't do that sort of thing, or at least not quite as much. So, by comparison, could the activities of the Aztecs be considered "wrong" by the neighboring tribes and therefore actually BE wrong? Just as any voodoo practicers in the US would be considered "wrong" for taking a life in the name of his/her "religion".
His response? "I bet no Aztecs ever walked up to any others and said, 'Man, what you did today was really wrong."
The debate was never really concluded because I walked away in a pout at being so utterly defeated by such a simple argument. Of course, I could always use the old "you weren't there either so YOU don't really know", but it seemed somewhat immature at the time...
My conclusion: Poop on him, but not on y'all if you have any comments. I don't like losing, but I like to hear y'alls opinions! {)

 

[pragmathen]

"This is willakitty! Hear ye Him!"

I couldn't agree with you more.

There was this time when I did something that felt pretty darn good and I remember feeling quite good about it. <i>Until</i> someone up and told me that what I had done (though in no way harmful to someone else) was actually a <i>wrong</i> thing to do. I never even thought it was wrong until this guy said it was. They kept telling me it was wrong so much that I began thinking that it probably <i>was</i> wrong, you know. That it was never even right. Funny, but the gal I was with at the time didn't think it was wrong. She rather thought it was right.

So, suffice to say that, except for the really big things like hurting others (fatally, I suppose), it seems that others have a great time telling yet others what is right and what is wrong.

Yeah, well. You put it better, but I just wanted to add a few cents worth.

peace,

prag

 

[willakitty]

I hear you on that last comment!

You're absolutely right! How does that old saying go? "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Anyway, I have a very bad sense of right and wrong in that I hold dear to me a more natural set of morals than what is readily available in the contemporary church. My motto is more like that of the Wiccans which believe it's okay to do whatever you like as long as no one else is harmed in the process (or afteraffects). Like no drinking and driving. No stealing or lying or cheating. No hurting others. It's all very good until you want to do something like smoke the milky haze plant. Then everyone wants to come in and tell me I'm wrong for doing something they wouldn't have even known except for the fact that I feel I should open about such things...and you would be very surprised how many of every kind of peoples smoke the canniba! Ah, well, no matter. I'm glad SOMEone in this world knows what it is to be on the "wrong" side and have a feeling you're not suppose to be there...

 

[jadex]

I have a lapel button I wear quite often that very accurately reflects how I feel about some of this. It says, "If God doesn't like how I live my life, let him tell me about it, not you." Comments?

 

[willakitty]

You suck...JUST KIDDING! I agree. That is very witty. However, watch who you say it to. There are many among us who are not us...*shiver!* So cryptic...)
I'm in the habit of wearing an anarchy pin when I know I'll be around people who don't like it but don't dare say anything because if they did they'd be breaking the very rules they believe are sooo important...*whisper!* i'm on a military installation...specifically: Moody AFB...
Isn't that twisted?! ME?! On a base?!...
You guys are disappointed in me, aren't you? Oh, well, if you still love me, you are the shiznit. If you don't you were kissing my --- this whole time and I don't like you anyway! })>


"Talk to me...Make me feel that I am alive..."

 

[homerermeyn]

My conclusion: Poop on him, but not on y'all if you have any comments. I don't like losing, but I like to hear y'alls opinions!
That's no loss, you always gain whenever you find that an opinion that you held strongly is proved to be less than sound. What you gain is another way of looking at the subject, and that is always useful.

 

[Malaclypse]

The Aztec culture surely needed blood to appease their GOD but I subscribe to the alternative idea that the blood being spilled was for their "cult of celebrity", though an unconscious reflection of their societal sphere.

Our culture also reflects this need for BLOOD through our need for the "cult of celebrity" in our general separation of our society and a binding religion.

 

[666]

"right" and "wrong"

Your argument wouldn't have been to hard to defend when you look at it with a slight bent.

Just because people know something is wrong doesn't all ways mean they will do what is right. Look to children for a prime example.

1.) Many children will lie due to fear of the anticipated punishment for the original infraction.

2.) Take the African head hunters for example. Killing is wrong, but if you were raised in a society that does not follow what is right (not killing for example) and chose to not follow thier lead you will be ridiculed and become an outcast. An out cast in a tribal setting has a very slime chance of success on thier own. They rely on each other for thier own good.

3.) Nazi Germany.
If you were found helping a Jew instead of persecution them you would face the same fate as the Jews. Thus many average Germans simply carried out the party line.


The motives for not doing what is right are extremely numerous! None of them have to do with what is right or what is wrong, but with one's own survival or success in life.

666

 

[Bowser]

It's better to be one of those who make the rules, I think. It's better to always be right. Ha, ha, ha!

 

[Corp.Hudson]

Aztecs

I hate to have to bring this up (because it is so irrelevant to your point), but the Aztecs were not bloodthirsty savages.

There is no hard evidence for cannibalism among the Aztecs, and darn little evidence for frequent human sacrifice.

The only evidence that exists of cannibilism is the memoirs of several of the conquistadors who went in with Cortez. The memoirs were not written until those very same conquistadors were being investigated by the Catholic church for their unfair treatment of the conquered Aztecs. The conquistadors most likely made up the cannabilism stories, as they had never been told before the conquistadors were under investigation.

There is only slightly more evidence for human sacrifice. Again, most of the evidence lies in the memoirs of the conquistadors, which are iffy at best, and most likely complete lies. The second major piece of evidence is ceremonial knives found by the religous centers. Modern scientists have shown that the knives could not have cut through a humans ribcage, so it is highly unlikely that they were used in human sacrifice. So, although there is some evidence, it is not very convincing.

Also, the Mayans and Incans practiced human sacrifice. The Mayans had the same sort of sacrificial altars and knives as the Aztecs, which makes the idea of the Mayans sacrificing humans also questionable. But there is actual evidence that the Incans of South America sacrificed humans in hard times, to appease the gods. Mummies of sacrificial victims (although they probably didnt consider themselves victims) have been found high in the Andes mountains, where Incan priests left them.

If you want evidence of cannabilism among other societies, one needs not look farther then the native american tribe of the Anasazis. There is ample evidence that they not only ate their enemies (even the unarmed ones), they also crapped out the remains of their enemies onto the bones of the enemies!

There are no absolute rights and wrongs in the world. Every culture has a completely different worldview, and completely different idea of right and wrong. While the Gebusi may think nothing of killing suspected criminals, we think it is a horrible punishment. And while we let each other starve in the streets, the Gebusi would be horrified to see one of their own go hungry. Its all a matter of perception.

 

[tony1]

Re: Aztecs

Originally posted by Corp.Hudson
...but the Aztecs were not bloodthirsty savages.

There is no hard evidence for cannibalism among the Aztecs, and darn little evidence for frequent human sacrifice.

Whew!
I was losing sleep over the question, "were the Aztecs sacrificing their human victims frequently or just rarely?"

I can rest easy knowing it was rarely.

Thus, they weren't bloodthirsty savages; they were "bloodsipping," urbane, civilized, basically "good people."

 

[Pzzaboy]

it was said at first that people are basically good, and I think this is more or less true, I think people are basically scavengers that are taught to be good, at least as far as my fellow Americans go. We are taught from the earliest age we can remember to get as much as you can with as little work as possible. And, if at all possible, try not to screw over too many people in the process. There are getting to be fewer and fewer "Good" people and more and more scavengers, just waiting for anyone to let thier gaurd down long enough to grab something.