Obscure historical facts

exchemist said:
Interesting points. I suppose there may have been a link - admittedly a loose one - between the extent of the franchise and the general level of education (literacy at least) of the franchised groups.
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Keep them dumb. Someone's got to spill their blood in times of war and man the factories in peacetime.

exchemist said:
However I think it would be too restrictive to say there was no democracy before that. Ancient Athens is generally taken to be the cradle of democracy and in that society neither women nor the numerous slaves could vote:
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What! Bring back the good old Athens democracy? I prefer a modern interpretation.. Equal rights for all.

exchemist said:
fact, the gradual extension of the franchise is an interesting phenomenon to contemplate, now that we have extended it so far that really bad decisions can result from it.
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Somethings didn't go your way in the last few years?

Can you give an example/s of your idea of the ''really bad decisions can result from it. '' You seem to be saying some shouldn'd be allowed to vote. If that is the case, can you tell us who?
 
Janus58 said:
The fire bombs balloons didn't hit any military installations. A submarine had also bombarded an oil field near Santa Barbara, CA, but again, this was not a military installation.
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Yep, and the sub didn't start any forest fires.

But both were more impressive than then bat bombs.
 
sweetpea said:
Keep them dumb. Someone's got to spill their blood in times of war and man the factories in peacetime.



What! Bring back the good old Athens democracy? I prefer a modern interpretation.. Equal rights for all.

Somethings didn't go your way in the last few years?

Can you give an example/s of your idea of the ''really bad decisions can result from it. '' You seem to be saying some shouldn'd be allowed to vote. If that is the case, can you tell us who?
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Trump. Brexit. PiS [sic]. Orban.

There is an argument to be made that universal franchise may result in bad choices by ill-informed people. Certainly that is the reason why in Western countries we do not practice democracy on the Athenian model, except to some extent in Switzerland. Generally we use representative democracy in which we select people to take decisions on our behalf, rather than subjecting everything to a referendum. This system has in fact been described as "elective dictatorship" (Quintin Hogg).

One might start to wonder, by extension, whether allowing everyone to vote, on even selection of the people to govern, results in the best outcome, now that the media treat politics as entertainment. I'm pretty cynical about it now, but I don't seriously have an alternative in mind - we are all more or less literate at least now - but I do oppose the move to extend the franchise 16 yr olds, for example.
 
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exchemist said:
Trump. Brexit. PiS [sic]. Orban.

There is an argument to be made that universal franchise may result in bad choices by ill-informed people. Certainly that is the reason why in Western countries we do not practice democracy on the Athenian model, except to some extent in Switzerland. Generally we use representative democracy in which we select people to take decisions on our behalf, rather than subjecting everything to a referendum. This system has in fact been described as "elective dictatorship" (Quintin Hogg).
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I can't comment on Trump or PiS. I take it you are not in favour of Brexit? That is, your taking Brexit as an example of a ''really bad decisions can result from it. ''

There are MPs in both major parties pushing for Brexit, I would think more so in the Tories. Your saying it is your opinion these MPs are ''ill- informed''? I think your saying, voters shouldn't listen to MPs hustings, period??

exchemist said:
One might start to wonder, by extension, whether allowing everyone to vote, on even selection of the people to govern, results in the best outcome, now that the media treat politics as entertainment. I'm pretty cynical about it now, but I don't seriously have an alternative in mind - we are all more or less literate at least now - but I do oppose the move to extend the franchise 16 yr olds, for example.
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Remember how the Eleven Plus exam (UK) shaped the future schooling of a child aged eleven, to think it is only another five years later, when they are 16, that some expect them to make a decision which will shape the country. Although I'm in favour of equal rights for all, dropping the voting age to 16 is odd to me.
As for the Media, it's your choice of rag (paper) Sky, ITV, BBC and web.
 
sweetpea said:
I can't comment on Trump or PiS. I take it you are not in favour of Brexit? That is, your taking Brexit as an example of a ''really bad decisions can result from it. ''

There are MPs in both major parties pushing for Brexit, I would think more so in the Tories. Your saying it is your opinion these MPs are ''ill- informed''? I think your saying, voters shouldn't listen to MPs hustings, period??


Remember how the Eleven Plus exam (UK) shaped the future schooling of a child aged eleven, to think it is only another five years later, when they are 16, that some expect them to make a decision which will shape the country. Although I'm in favour of equal rights for all, dropping the voting age to 16 is odd to me.
As for the Media, it's your choice of rag (paper) Sky, ITV, BBC and web.
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Yes I certainly do the think the Brexit vote was ill-informed, as evidenced by the fact that a very substantial majority of MPs (who know more about the subject than the man in the pub) were in favour of remaining: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35616946

And yes, I do think it was a really bad decision, not least because there was no clarity - and still isn't - about what the alternative was supposed to be.

I am not of course saying people should not listen to hustings. But the grounds on which they voted seem so depressingly ignorant. One taxi driver told my mother he would be voting to leave, to stop all these Pakistanis coming in. The areas that voted in largest numbers to leave are those with most to lose: Cornwall, S Wales, Tyneside etc.
 
Broadly speaking, people voted for or against Brexit in line with their circumstances. For the average working man, the unlimited influx of EU immigrants increases competition for jobs driving down wages and increases competition for accommodation driving up rents. Employers and property owners have opposite interests. It is not the degree of ignorance but the greed of the wealthy that I find depressing.
 
submarine intelligence gathering by the US Navy from the 1959 to the 1998 . gathering info from undersea cable tapping of the Soviets communications , the risks they took to get this info. and arctic submarine strategy .
 
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River Ape said:
Broadly speaking, people voted for or against Brexit in line with their circumstances. For the average working man, the unlimited influx of EU immigrants increases competition for jobs driving down wages and increases competition for accommodation driving up rents. Employers and property owners have opposite interests. It is not the degree of ignorance but the greed of the wealthy that I find depressing.
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And I am disheartened by the lack of compassion by the Brexiters. "Well, who the hell cares what happens to those immigrants? I want more money!"
 
billvon said:
And I am disheartened by the lack of compassion by the Brexiters. "Well, who the hell cares what happens to those immigrants? I want more money!"
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Really , or more importantly about freedom . Freedom , from other countries control .
 
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River Ape said:
Broadly speaking, people voted for or against Brexit in line with their circumstances. For the average working man, the unlimited influx of EU immigrants increases competition for jobs driving down wages and increases competition for accommodation driving up rents. Employers and property owners have opposite interests. It is not the degree of ignorance but the greed of the wealthy that I find depressing.
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This is only true if "circumstances" includes where they live in the country. London and the SE were strongly for Remain, even those who are not affluent. So were both Scotland and N Ireland, neither region particularly wealthy. The notion that only the "greedy" wealthy voted Remain is obvious nonsense. It would mean that that applied to 48% of those who voted. The trade unions were in favour of Remain: https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-referendum-leave-remain-uk-trade-unions-brexit-news-uk-politics/

What is depressing is that people in the NE of England, where there is a major car plant, and in S Wales, where there is a steel plant that has just been rescued, thought it made sense to vote for a policy that will eventually result in both those employers getting into financial difficulty and quite likely closing, due to loss of markets where they can be competitive and disruption of their supply chains. The trade unions understand that, and also the advantages for working people of the protections they are entitled to under EU law.
 
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