Objectivity.

Where does the very concept of God come from? After all, if something doesn't exist, no one thinks about it. But people have always been religious, even primitive peoples. Why?
A few reasons.

One, some people are crazy and hear voices. In the absence of modern psychiatric science, people often ascribed this to hearing God. Joan of Arc was one such example. No doubt there are many others.

Two, it fulfills some basic human needs:

- A desire for meaning. We all want to know what things mean. "Why is she mad at me?" "Why do antelopes run away from me?" "Why does the rain come and when will it come again?" All those things helped our species survive. But we can try so hard at it - and not succeed at finding meaning for some things - that we turn to a supernatural entity.

- To cope with fear and uncertainty. Often people want to know "it will all be OK" and they will have comfort and closure in their last days - or even afterwards. A god can provide that certainty.

- A need for belonging. It's a basic human desire to be part of something - a family, a social group, a movement, a political party, a religion - and to protect ourselves against "the other." This basic drive helps us form and protect societies.
 
Objectivity is what is perceived, subjectivity is what the mine thinks about it.

If there's public agreement on the content of exteroception, the latter can be treated as mind-independent. Since individually, a person might be experiencing drug hallucinations or mental illness, so that what they're experiencing differs from the majority. While the external environment we perceive is a brain-produced representation, we can't control it by will alone -- that world follows its own governance slash rules rather than the wishes of human observers. And its objects have consequences if they are "real" or shared in [most] everyone's vision and other sensations. There's never going to be non-mediated access to how existence exists independent of the brain's manifestations and its cognition of those (identification and understanding). We only have the empirical slash phenomenal "external world" of perception and what we infer from it via reason and experiment. Trying to enter or return to the metaphysical (ultimate or noumenal) version of the external world by death (eradicating one's mediating consciousness) merely yields "absence of everything" (no manifestations at all, and certainly no interpreting intelligence).
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A few reasons.

One, some people are crazy and hear voices. In the absence of modern psychiatric science, people often ascribed this to hearing God. Joan of Arc was one such example. No doubt there are many others.

Two, it fulfills some basic human needs:

- A desire for meaning. We all want to know what things mean. "Why is she mad at me?" "Why do antelopes run away from me?" "Why does the rain come and when will it come again?" All those things helped our species survive. But we can try so hard at it - and not succeed at finding meaning for some things - that we turn to a supernatural entity.

- To cope with fear and uncertainty. Often people want to know "it will all be OK" and they will have comfort and closure in their last days - or even afterwards. A god can provide that certainty.

- A need for belonging. It's a basic human desire to be part of something - a family, a social group, a movement, a political party, a religion - and to protect ourselves against "the other." This basic drive helps us form and protect societies.
Primitive people often perceived the caused of natural phenomena in terms of spirits or gods.
 
There is this deaf percussionist, I think she's Scottish. Fair enough. Vibration from the sticks and drums. If there are people who can tell the difference between different types of music, songs scales etc just using their bodies then that is news to me.
If they can perceive vibration from percussion, they should be able to do it with all sound, perhaps having to learn first.
 
If there's public agreement on the content of exteroception, the latter can be treated as mind-independent. Since individually, a person might be experiencing drug hallucinations or mental illness, so that what they're experiencing differs from the majority. While the external environment we perceive is a brain-produced representation, we can't control it by will alone -- that world follows its own governance slash rules rather than the wishes of human observers. And its objects have consequences if they are "real" or shared in [most] everyone's vision and other sensations. There's never going to be non-mediated access to how existence exists independent of the brain's manifestations and its cognition of those (identification and understanding). We only have the empirical slash phenomenal "external world" of perception and what we infer from it via reason and experiment. Trying to enter or return to the metaphysical (ultimate or noumenal) version of the external world by death (eradicating one's mediating consciousness) merely yields "absence of everything" (no manifestations at all, and certainly no interpreting intelligence).
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Both the external and internal experiences are objective to my awareness of them
 
I'd say no, not in your example, but I have never had that experience.
I already described the situation, you don't move, the other train does. This happens if you travel by train a lot but it does not matter if you personally have never experienced it.
I feel a sick when it happens, dizzy.
The point is that my analysis of the situation is wrong, I am stationary on the platform. My brain, my feeling, my interpretation of the visual stimulus is wrong.
Everyone watching would tell me I am wrong and also I realise when the train passes and I see the platform.
Objective truth - I am not moving
My Subjective view - moving.
 
That's misusing the logic behind the distinction that you are raising in philosophy isn't it?

Calling an observation subjective is true in an absolute (God like) sense but if 10 people observe the sun coming up in the east, that's pretty objective. It 10 people observe a flying cow, that isn't objective. It's about probabilities and prior factual cases.
If 10 people observe the sun coming up, their observations - i.e. the experience they have upon the photons hitting their retinas etc - are subjective. But their subjective observations are of an objective phenomenon.
Science, not philosophy, works on a slightly different idea of objectivity, and is really about a "reliable intersubjectivity" (intersubjectivity is another term for "shared subjectivity").
In Philosophy objectivity is a stricter concept, and means independent from any perspective or experience, or from any mind etc.
So in philosophy, the observation itself is subjective, but what causes it - i.e. what is emitting the photons - can be objective. The sun will be there, doing what it does, whether humans are there to observe it or not, no matter what perspective it is viewed from. It, as a phenomenon, is objective. But how we view it will always be subjective.
Science takes all those subjective viewpoints, and from them infers a reliable intersubjectivity - i.e. distils down what we're subjectively observing to reliable characteristics / properties. But note that science is nearly always examining the cause of our observation, not the observation itself. (Exceptions arise where science tries to look at the very nature of observation itself, at vision, why we "see" etc).
You say if an individual sees it, it's subjective but the fact that it is there is objective but you can't establish that fact other than with human observations and probabilities.
You can establish that there was a cause. With no cause, nothing would happen, you would observe nothing. So there has to be something there, an objective phenomenon. Even if it is an hallucination, the cause is objective (e.g. something neurological) even if we don't understand it.
Science can help us understand the characteristics / properties of that objective phenomenon through this idea of reliable intersubjectivity. But philosophy still distinguishes between the observation (subjective) and the causal phenomenon (objective).
You can use test equipment but that's designed by humans and the data is interpreted by humans.
In science, yes, to arrive at this reliable intersubjectivity. Science calls that "objective", and will refer to it as a "scientific fact" if it is deemed sufficiently reliable, etc. But that is science, not the strict sense of philosophy.
There is a use case in philosophy for the point you are making, that being humans see patterns that sometimes aren't there, draw false conclusions, etc. But to say that it is always subjective but the fact is objective, really has no useful meaning or relevance, even in philosophy, right?
Philosophy is the realm where those distinctions are made, where they are examined. It provides the framework. Other realms (science, psychology etc) then take that and come up with the practical aspects. So to say that it "really has no useful meaning or relevance, even in philosophy", would seem to miss the point of philosophy.

It's like someone coming up with mathematics: it has no inherent use within mathematics, does it? However, other areas (engineering, accounting etc) can make use of what mathematics defines, what it clarifies, what it examines.
 
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Both the external and internal experiences are objective to my awareness of them

"Objective" might be applicable at times to both extrospective and introspective affairs in the terms of the adjective's meaning as a cognitive attitude: "without distortion of personal feelings or interpretation".

But not the meaning of: "Existing independent of or external to the mind; actual or real".

External oriented experiences don't even strictly qualify for the latter, since again those are brain-produced representations of things that are inferred as having mind-independent existence. But still adequate for everyday life and parlance, and when objects have been vetted with respect to actual physical contact slash consequences, and multiple people vouching that such are also present in their perceptions. (But most of us don't have to worry about the hallucinations of mental illness and substance abuse, and thereby don't really need extreme philosophical verification like that.)
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Wow, 74 posts in 18 hours on a freshman philosophy topic. You guys are gluttons for punishment. Comes down to whether one holds with an objectivist ontology or not, backed by an intersubjective consensus that a real external world exists. Seems like the default position of most humans > age 2.
 
I already described the situation, you don't move, the other train does. This happens if you travel by train a lot but it does not matter if you personally have never experienced it.
I feel a sick when it happens, dizzy.
The point is that my analysis of the situation is wrong, I am stationary on the platform. My brain, my feeling, my interpretation of the visual stimulus is wrong.
Everyone watching would tell me I am wrong and also I realise when the train passes and I see the platform.
Objective truth - I am not moving
My Subjective view - moving.
Actually to truthfully answer with 100% certainty, I would have to experience it. I may not experience it as you do.
 
"Objective" might be applicable at times to both extrospective and introspective affairs in the terms of the adjective's meaning as a cognitive attitude: "without distortion of personal feelings or interpretation".

But not the meaning of: "Existing independent of or external to the mind; actual or real".

External oriented experiences don't even strictly qualify for the latter, since again those are brain-produced representations of things that are inferred as having mind-independent existence. But still adequate for everyday life and parlance, and when objects have been vetted with respect to actual physical contact slash consequences, and multiple people vouching that such are also present in their perceptions. (But most of us don't have to worry about the hallucinations of mental illness and substance abuse, and thereby don't really need extreme philosophical verification like that.)
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But in my experience, they are independent of the mind and the vehicle through which they are experienced.
 
Agreed, it is called the seeing of reality, and only through perceptions and awareness can this be achieved, not by thoughts and theories.
Ah I see what you are getting at. Yes, knowing enough about science to know what perceptions are valid, and what perceptions are illusions, is key.
 
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