Objectivity.

Wizard of Whatever

Valued Senior Member
Many here contend that observation and experience are subjective,
I contend they are as objective as anything else, and in some cases more objective.
They are objective to you inmost awareness an only described and analyzed reflectively as in a mirror.
 
Many here contend that observation and experience are subjective,
I contend they are as objective as anything else, and in some cases more objective.
They are objective to you inmost awareness an only described and analyzed reflectively as in a mirror.
Some contend that the Sun and Moon aren't real but I contend that they are real.
 
Bodhi originally has no tree,
The mirror has no stand.
Buddha-nature is always clean and pure;
Where is there room for dust to alight?
 
Many here contend that observation and experience are subjective,
I contend they are as objective as anything else, and in some cases more objective.
Except - they are opposite definitions.

Subjective is what you experience with your mind.
Objective is what actually happens.

Some examples:

Pilots flying in IMC (clouds) often have a (subjective) feeling that they are turning. If they correct this, then they FEEL like they are level, but are actually beginning a turn. If not corrected by trusting the instruments over your subjective feeling, you will die. (This is what killed JFK Jr.)

Now SUBJECTIVELY you may believe you are saving your (and your passengers) life by turning. But since objective fact does not care about your subjective feelings, you will die anyway.

People taking LSD may perceive sounds as colors. This has no objective reality; sound and light are different things. A person experiences LSD then tries to get their solar power system to absorb energy from music will fail, because objective reality does not agree with their subjective experience.

If you are flying on a passenger airliner, subjectively you may feel like you are standing still relative to the Earth since you perceive no motion. This is erroneous; you are actually going hundreds of miles an hour objectively.
 
It is contended in the “Tao Te Ching”, “Water is fluid, soft and yielding. But water will wear away rock, which is rigid and cannot yield."
 
Except - they are opposite definitions.

Subjective is what you experience with your mind.
Objective is what actually happens.

Some examples:

Pilots flying in IMC (clouds) often have a (subjective) feeling that they are turning. If they correct this, then they FEEL like they are level, but are actually beginning a turn. If not corrected by trusting the instruments over your subjective feeling, you will die. (This is what killed JFK Jr.)

Now SUBJECTIVELY you may believe you are saving your (and your passengers) life by turning. But since objective fact does not care about your subjective feelings, you will die anyway.

People taking LSD may perceive sounds as colors. This has no objective reality; sound and light are different things. A person experiences LSD then tries to get their solar power system to absorb energy from music will fail, because objective reality does not agree with their subjective experience.

If you are flying on a passenger airliner, subjectively you may feel like you are standing still relative to the Earth since you perceive no motion. This is erroneous; you are actually going hundreds of miles an hour objectively.
A passenger on a stationary train "feels" like they are moving when in fact they are observing the train next to them move.
Completely false, it is the way our brain has been trained.

Objectivity= what is real
Subjectivity= how our brain feels about it.

Only the second one can get it wrong.
 
Many here contend that observation and experience are subjective,
I contend they are as objective as anything else, and in some cases more objective.
As far as observation goes, it really depends on what is being observed.

If you observe that you feel hungry, that's a subjective observation. If you observe that the moon is in its waxing gibbous phase, that is objective.

The difference is that other people can confirm your objective experiences, whereas nobody has access to your subjective experiences.

Every individual has their own subjective experience. However, facts about the world that everyone can observe independently and agree on (in principle) are objective.
 
As far as observation goes, it really depends on what is being observed.

If you observe that you feel hungry, that's a subjective observation. If you observe that the moon is in its waxing gibbous phase, that is objective.

The difference is that other people can confirm your objective experiences, whereas nobody has access to your subjective experiences.

Every individual has their own subjective experience. However, facts about the world that everyone can observe independently and agree on (in principle) are objective.
Так себе аргумент... если поместить вас в общество глухих от рождения, вы не сможете им доказать, что музыка существует. Или слепым от рождения, что на небе есть радуга. Вы будете это знать точно, а вам скажут, что вы фантазёр.
 
Так себе аргумент... если поместить вас в общество глухих от рождения, вы не сможете им доказать, что музыка существует. Или слепым от рождения, что на небе есть радуга. Вы будете это знать точно, а вам скажут, что вы фантазёр.
Olga, if they were born deaf they would not not be able to judge anything at all involving sound, they would not be part of the equation. Why do you think that is a relevant argument?
 
As far as observation goes, it really depends on what is being observed.
No it doesn't. Our observation is just an experiences, and experiences are always subjective. At least per the more strict understanding of objectivity as predominantly used in philosophy.
However, we might (subjectively) observe a subject-independent phenomenon.
If you observe that you feel hungry, that's a subjective observation. If you observe that the moon is in its waxing gibbous phase, that is objective.
No, this confuses what is subjective and objective. The objective thing is what exists independent of a subject. An observation is not independent of a subject (e.g. perspective). But what is observed might also exist independently from any subject. And hence the observation itself is subjective, and always subjective, but what we observe might be independent.
So in your example, the observation of the moon is subjective. The moon itself is objective. Don't confuse the observation for the thing itself.
The difference is that other people can confirm your objective experiences, whereas nobody has access to your subjective experiences.
Since this is the philosophy forum, we should be using terms as understood in philosophy, and "objective" means "independent of any particular subject's perspective, attitude, experience etc". Since vision is an experience, and what one observes is very much dependent upon perspective, an observation itself is always subjective.
In philosophy, therefore, "objective experience" is an oxymoron.
In science, or psychology, they may use the weaker notion of "objectivity" that you are trying to use, but, strictly, this being the "general philosophy" forum, you should probably use the stricter understanding.
Every individual has their own subjective experience. However, facts about the world that everyone can observe independently and agree on (in principle) are objective.
Yes, the "facts" are objective. But an observation of the fact is still subjective. The moon can be taken as objective. But an observation of the moon is not the moon. The moon is objective, whereas the experience of the moon, the observation etc, is subjective.

Science views objectivity differently. It doesn't really use the idea of subjective experiences at all, but rather refers to the idea of "observer-involving" measurements (that are also publicly accessible). I think it's gone down this route since the discovery of QM, and the impact that observations can have at that level. Anyhoo - science takes these "observer-involving" measurements and infers the objective features of the phenomenon, i.e. those that are subject-independent.

But this is the philosophy forum.
 
If you are placed in a society that is deaf from birth, you cannot prove to them that music exists. Or blind from birth, that there is a rainbow in the sky.
Both of these claims are factually incorrect.
 
Both of these claims are factually incorrect.
Думаете, не соответствуют? Тогда вы можете проверить это прямо сейчас. Наверняка, у вас в Австралии есть интернаты, где живут слепоглухонемые от рождения дети. Сходите туда, и попробуйте им объяснить с помощью формул(вы же это имели ввиду) , что такое музыка, или что такое радуга. Расскажите потом о результатах?
 
I didn't. Next!
Good, then the warning not to shouldn't be an issue for you. I mean, one doesn't need to have walked off a cliff to be warned not to walk off a cliff, right?

Anyhoo - hopefully after your careful reading of my previous post you now won't be mistaken about objectivity and subjectivity as used in philosophy.
 
Olga, if they were born deaf they would not not be able to judge anything at all involving sound, they would not be part of the equation. Why do you think that is a relevant argument?
Вот поэтому, если вам когда-нибудь встретится человек, у которого будет какая-нибудь способность, которой нет у большинства других людей - можете не сомневаться, его взгляды на окружающую действительность будут отличаться от ваших.
 
Many here contend that observation and experience are subjective,
I contend they are as objective as anything else, and in some cases more objective.
They are objective to you inmost awareness an only described and analyzed reflectively as in a mirror.
This misunderstands objectivity and subjectivity.
As Pinball1970 offered:
Objectivity= what is real
Subjectivity= how our brain feels about it.

Experience is objectively caused, but the content of the experience remains subjective.
So, when you say:
They are objective to you inmost awareness an only described and analyzed reflectively as in a mirror.
this would seem to be acknowledging that distinction: the cause is objective - something is happening; but the experience is the "description and analysis", and this remains subjective.
 
Surely you have boarding schools in Australia where deaf-blind children live from birth. Go there, and try to explain to them with the help of formulas (you meant it) what music is, or what a rainbow is. Tell us about the results later?
There's no need. I know that deaf children accept that music exists, despite being unable to hear it. I also know that blind child accept that rainbows exist, despite being unable to see them.
 
Good, then the warning not to shouldn't be an issue for you.
You alleged that I made several errors. You wrote "No...", "No...." in response to what I wrote, which was correct and error free. You assumed you were correcting me.
 
There's no need. I know that deaf children accept that music exists, despite being unable to hear it. I also know that blind child accept that rainbows exist, despite being unable to see them.
Тогда почему вы не можете просто поверить в некоторые вещи, Джеймс?
 
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