Obama Joker artist revealed
- Thread starter countezero
- Start date
Sandy: "Bye. Have fun! Bring us something! Can you make it something science-related?"
Sure. I'm going to produce a comprehensive and unifying dissertation on procrastination, when I get around to it.
Sure. I'm going to produce a comprehensive and unifying dissertation on procrastination, when I get around to it.
Can we at least agree that this one is racist, or are we going to defend it too?
That image is quite racist. I should remind the posters here that I'm not defending the Obama poster image (I think it's a poor analogy, politically misguided, and like all of the 'McHitlerBushNazi' and 'ObamaWrightHitler' images, crude and unhelpful), but rather debating whether or not it's racist. There's a difference.
Really? And you can tell that how?geoff said:
Don't you have to research the author's intent, what they really meant, all that kind of stuff, as with the Obama poster? Suppose you find out it was someone who was just fooling around on photoshop, trying to make Obama look like Carmen Miranda, because they liked her voice and he's a good speaker?
Ice...chill.
Becaaaause the reference is very overt: African, witch-doctor, etc. Unless you think he's actually representative of a specific cartoon witch-doctor character?
Anyway: there's no real precedent that I know of to imply anything different. It's not a character derived independently of any African reference, specifically. Ergo, racist.
Are you seriously pissed off? Easy, there. As for the intent: I didn't really address the intent too heavily, but more the result. The author may have chosen that image for the purposes of racism; it's possible. But the result really isn't racist unless you're looking for that specifically; in short, it doesn't jive because the Joker is a character which is independent of any African reference, and which wears face-paint (and it's not whiteface, Ice, and you know that) as part of its effect. It's from playing cards, not African stereotypes, however dated. I'll assume that the intent was racist on the weight of the connection to the stereotype. If there's any reason to discuss it contrarily, let us hear it now.
Carmen Miranda dressed up like a stereotypical (not even sure if that word really applies, since the meme is inaccurate anyway) African witch doctor meme?
Lastly, what was that Palestinian connection you mentioned earlier? Didn't really follow.
Becaaaause the reference is very overt: African, witch-doctor, etc. Unless you think he's actually representative of a specific cartoon witch-doctor character?
Anyway: there's no real precedent that I know of to imply anything different. It's not a character derived independently of any African reference, specifically. Ergo, racist.Are you seriously pissed off? Easy, there. As for the intent: I didn't really address the intent too heavily, but more the result. The author may have chosen that image for the purposes of racism; it's possible. But the result really isn't racist unless you're looking for that specifically; in short, it doesn't jive because the Joker is a character which is independent of any African reference, and which wears face-paint (and it's not whiteface, Ice, and you know that) as part of its effect. It's from playing cards, not African stereotypes, however dated. I'll assume that the intent was racist on the weight of the connection to the stereotype. If there's any reason to discuss it contrarily, let us hear it now.
Carmen Miranda dressed up like a stereotypical (not even sure if that word really applies, since the meme is inaccurate anyway) African witch doctor meme?
Lastly, what was that Palestinian connection you mentioned earlier? Didn't really follow.
Look, I happen to dress like a witch-doctor IRL. A lot of people do think it's weird, but it's just how I was raised. So let's just move on, and not make a big deal out of this.
/shaking bone
/shaking bone
Geoff, do try to avoid this kind of stuff. Play those games with countzero or somebody.geoff said:
So was the whiteface Obama "socialist" poster.geoff said:
In the US, "looking for that specifically" is a given. The alternative is obliviousness.geoff said:
It looks like no playing card I have ever seen. And the racial loading, in the poster and its popular versions, is flagrant - that's what it's used for, throughout.geoff said:
Ice - it is not a game. I'm asking because your writing sounds pissed off, and I respect your opinion, and I don't want the argument to get personal. I've encountered a lot of acrimony lately and I want to be sure it isn't that. I am not fucking around with you. Not a game.
Well, they say ignorance is bliss. I don't think it's that, but then again I'm not American in point of fact, so that might argue in your favour. Perhaps we should run a poll on it: American, not American, racist poster, not racist poster. I hate to just throw it up to popular opinion, but it might be a useful tool to bitch back and forth with.
Well, that's the origin of the character the Joker. Joker - playing cards. The character itself clearly wasn't intended as a racist caricature, and it's pretty much impossible to separate the whole face-paint-colours meme from the character. A Joker showing up without the face-paint isn't the Joker.
OK - what do you mean by "used for, throughout"?
The media crucified W. They portrayed him as a chimp, Hitler, an idiot, a moron, stupid, redneck, hick etc. He is none of these. He is a smart, funny, awesome man of God.
Hmm. The mood is more bemusement, in real chair. I've taken note.geoff said:
He looks like a chimp - even walks a bit bowlegged with his arms held away - and presents himself as kind of stupid. That's caricature - using the person's actual resemblances, rather than throwing stereotypes of race or class.xylene said:
It's not the appearance or associations of a black face coated in white greasepaint with squealor's jailhouse scars widening his mouth and coon eyes drawn in.geoff said:
The Joker as a character, what would be the character's associations if they predominated, is violent, undisciplined, disheveled, careless of image, indifferent to judgment, rejector of ambition, scorner of honor or even glory, a nihilist using established or inherited connections and power to create chaos, a vandal. Obama is nothing if not well-mannered, disciplined, clean-cut, gentlemanly, a seeker of power rather than an inheritor, the opposite of a creator of chaos - the accusations might be of pretention, overweening ambition, approval seeking and manipulating, running a skilled con of elegance to cover a dark plot of tyranny, and so forth - almost the opposite of the Joker, as a villain.
If there were any sign of something very sophisticated going on - Obama as the negative of the Joker, the obverse image, and the point being fully as villainous (the polar opposite of evil being also evil, good residing in moderation), then sure - look at the memes and meanings.
Meanwhile:
A better putting might be that flagrant racism is the company the poster (maybe not the original image) keeps - it's emailed around by the same people who email compendiums of crude jokes about a janitor running the black house, that kind of thing. It's use is by bigots, in the real world. If what someone really objects to is Obama's methods and policies, that image is wrong, off-kilter, like a caricature of W with a paunch and smoking a cigar.geoff said:
There are those who could argue that Obama looks more chimp-like with his black skin, big ears, big lips etc but they won't. They would be called racists and terrible names.
Ice, have you seen the new movie?
Precisely: it's not a clever analogy, but it's not racist.
Well, I've never heard the jailor thing. But who ever said that the far-right was subtle, precise, or accurate?
Pandaemoni
Valued Senior Member
Although skin color varies, many chimps have white skin and all have thin lips by human standards.
In fact, that our lips are turned inside out ("everted") at all is unique amongst the primates. Something caused us to evolve more prominent lips (which are also darker than the rest of the face, another human-only trait).
It suggests that you equate those African American features with apelike characteristics without actlly knowing anything about apes.
"Precisely" was the observation that there is little but racism to power it. And it was powered, as such things go.geoff said:
Inaccuracies reveal. If accurate, the justification by caricature would have support - there would be meaning derivable from the real world. It's in the falsehoods - see Sandy's ape comparison - that irrationalities like racism become visible.geoff said:
Well, I disagree. "Back in the day", when overt criticism of Obama was much rarer, it was a shocking display: and that's what it's done here. I don't believe it was powered by racism, but by sheer criticism of Obama, despite not completely spot-on. I've met a number of Obama supporters that were simply over the top in their support; one guy in my old lab would follow me around the lab arguing that I must be a latent Bush supporter
rolleyes and that Obama was new and fresh and perfect and blah blah blah. He couldn't accept that I was a cynic for good reason. So...that's the shock effect that I feel was being sought here: that anyone should, without soft-pedaling their comments, simply said "Obama = Socialist asshole". If it was being powered by racism, it would have looked like the poster Pand posted.I disagree - if the allegory doesn't fit, the mind will search for something else it can seize on. It seems more likely to me that because the Joker allegory doesn't fit perfectly, we're searching for some other meaning that we think fits better. But that subsequent association - I argue - is one of our own making. Racism does indeed loom large in the American consciousness.