New Evidence shows Pat Tilmman was murdered. Bush claims executive privillage

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Ganymede, Jul 27, 2007.

  1. Echo3Romeo One man wolfpack Registered Senior Member

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    Truthfully, you seem to be the one ignorant of the documented evidence of this case. The ambush was triggered by somebody dropping a mortar round near the convoy. A/2/75 Rangers pursued the individuals who perpetrated the attack during the days following this incident. The mortar round triggered the fire that led Tillman and the AMF soldier back to the spur above the canyon, thinking that the convoy's second half was under fire needing support. While the guy(s) who lobbed the mortar round were not engaged that day, Tillman and the AMF soldier were skylined against the setting sun near the position the convoy believed the mortar crew to be operating from. They were consequently subjected to a torrent of fire as the convoy attempted its egress from the ambush site.

    This is all in the CID report, which I referenced in my first post, which you have obviously not taken the time to read.

    Then by all means please cite it. This "silly game" is the letter of the law and the way legal procedures are governed. It does your case no credit to make arguments predicated upon alleged procedural violations and then discount said procedures as superfluous when they do not support your claims.

    Speculation. Tillman was a positive asset to every level of his Company, well-liked and respected by all. You can read any number of news articles about that, or the interviews contained in the CID report.

    I would also appreciate it if you would spare me the condescending attempts to educate me about "direct experience with the US Army" because I have plenty. Thank you.
     
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  3. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    I flew a mission in 1970, in Vietnam, for troops in contact, it was in a area called the Y, it was a point were 2 rivers joined, a recon team from the 1/9 Cav were moving north along the river, a company sweep of ARVN were coming down the river from the north west, and there was a NVA unit in position on the North North East branch, they all hit each other about the same time, and everybody was shooting at everybody else, and it took two hours to get the mess straightened out and that happened when one of the Arty Battery's got two fire mission one from the ARVN, and one from the 1/9 Cav calling strikes on each others position, the screw up was because the ARVN failed to co-ordinate their sweep with Division. This incident cost 4 ARVN KIA, 12 WIA, U.S. 2 KIA, 3 WIA, sound like a similar situation, troops moving about with out their positions being known and the enemy in contact.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2007
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  5. countezero Registered Senior Member

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    You have no facts to back that assertion up. You only have opinions.
     
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  7. Ganymede Valued Senior Member

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    Pat Tilman was killed beacause of his Political views. He would of been the best anti Iraq activist if he was allowed to return home.
     
  8. countezero Registered Senior Member

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    Soldiers aren't "allowed" to return home until they are discharged. And your claim about Tillman's political views is ridiculous. You have no proof to support it.
     
  9. John99 Banned Banned

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    and you know exactly how he felt? WOW.
     
  10. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    well there is evidence that he was fragged
     
  11. Ganymede Valued Senior Member

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    Exactly. And apparently Donlad Rumsfeld won't be tesitifying at Pat Tilmans hearing tommorow. What can be more important then clarifying the death of an American Hero?

    http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Rumsfeld_apparently_refuses_to_testify_at_0731.html
     
  12. John99 Banned Banned

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    i would hate to be on trial with you two on the jury.
     
  13. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    And what, pray tell, could Rumsfeld possibly know ANYTHING about what happened in Afghanistan, thousands of miles away from where he was? Duh?

    Baron Max
     
  14. Echo3Romeo One man wolfpack Registered Senior Member

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    It is pretty well publicized that Pat and Kevin Tillman were not big fans of the Iraq war or president Bush. Kevin wrote a rather ballsy critique of the Iraq war in 2006, a few weeks before the elections (google for "After Pat's Birthday). Pat was going to meet with Noam Chomsky after he finished the OEF deployment during which he was killed. You could probably find some of this with a few minutes of googling.

    I agree with Ganymede that Pat Tillman would have been a true folk hero for the antiwar movement here at home. An educated, well-read, well-spoken GWOT veteran with an intellegible dialogue is hard not to notice, as opposed to the usual dreck you find at antiwar rallies (no blood for oil, pictures of Bush and chimp, "insert your leftist agenda here" banners, etc).
     
  15. Echo3Romeo One man wolfpack Registered Senior Member

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    To those of you who have sent me PMs...I apologize for not responding, I do not get that privelege until 20 posts either.
     
  16. John99 Banned Banned

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    That is pretty good. I did not get a PM untill 1,500+ posts.
     
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    I've read it. I've also read disputes as to its accuracy. The Tillman family seems to think they are being lied to still, and they have been right so far.
    The whole port security issue sort of scuppered, somehow. Last I heard, December of '06 DP completed sale of their American interests to AIG, a multinational with US base. But AIG doesn't really know how to manage so many such large ports - so in the purchase agreement they subcontracted (or leased back, or something) a lot of stuff , including security, to the seller, for the time being.
    I'm sure the capture of OBL could have been spun advantageously by Rove&Co, regardless of how it happened, for as long as necessary.
    They didn't "enable" squat. The Taliban had less to do with 9/11 than the governor of Florida did (he was at least harboring the actual terrorists, and supplying them with flight simulators etc) - It was planned in Germany, financed by Saudis and Pakistanis, executed by Saudis and a couple of others; can you name a single Taliban official who even knew about it?
    Jesus H Roosevelt Christ. I will repeat the particular argument at issue yet again: I argued, with various circumstantial evidence, that it appears W&Co did a clever job of painting themselves into a corner, so they could claim they had no choice but to invade. In that argument, everything that W&Co did to paint themselves into that corner counts as stuff they did to paint themselves into that corner. The issuance of "Doctrines" and similar PR crap all falls under that category - stuff that W&Co did that painted them into that corner. It's further evidence in support of my argument - goofy PR, with no obvious purpose beyond grandstanding, used for justifiying a dubious action with many underlying motives.
    History shows nothing of the kind. History shows that starting wars leads to bigger problems than the ones being fought over, almost every time.
    No. They predicted a long, bloody, messy, expensive, incompetent, corruption ridden occupation of Iraq - for which silliness thay were laughed at by the respectable media. And they predicted that W would never bring OBL to trial.
    He's a PR problem now because the coverup was blown - not because there was no coverup, at the 3-star level no less. And no, I do not - yet - believe he was murdered with the complicity of some agency directed from the White House. I find it more likely he was shot by mistake, or fragged for more personal reasons. But the possibility is not nonsense. Tillman was a unique danger, and W&Co are perfectly capable of recognizing that and handling it so.
     
  18. countezero Registered Senior Member

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    So what if some people think Tillman would have be a perfect poster child for the anti-war left? Those people are assuming he would have thrown his lot in with them, which we have no way of knowing, and from that point are leaping across a chasm to assume he was "fragged" because of that possibility. This is all inference and rank speculation. Even if Tillman was fragged, which hasn't been proven yet, there's no evidence he was fragged for his politics...
     
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Make that inference and informed speculation.

    The point being: it's not likely, but it's not ridiculous - which tells you something about this war, and this administration.
     
  20. countezero Registered Senior Member

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    Then why don't they want to catch him?

    No, I can't. And it doesn't matter. I never said the Taliban knew about the plot or helped spawn it. They didn't. I said they enabled it, which they very obviously did by providing bib Laden with a safe heaven to train his men, meet with them, arm them and provide them with financing. That's what enabling means. It's the base of the pillar. It isn't the vase perched on top. They specifically accepted this man into their country. Thus, the moral and legal problem writ large here is similar to the responsibility an individual has if they let a known criminal stay in their house while they are plotting and committing crimes. You can be charged for that in this country. And the Taliban suffered a similar fate on a scale that was appropriate.

    That's an outrageous statement, completely devoid of any logic. The governor of Florida (who I assume you chose because he is Bush's brother) is now responsible for the actions of everyone residing within his state?

    OK. Could the Taliban not have "painted" themselves out of the corner by handing OBL over, no strings attached? Using your logic and your premise, it would have been hard for Bush to wiggle out of that one...

    The problem is you can't prove any of those motives and your entire premise depends on a subjective judgment that the doctrine was "PR crap." I don't think it was, so I reject your claims.

    Like World War II? The War of 1812? The Civil War? The Revolutionary War? Do you want me to go on? Wars solve political conflicts that otherwise can't be solved and reset the playing board for future generations. I'm sure a person can expand whatever period of history their looking at to say that war led to this, which led to that, and that was more horrible than this, but I find that puerile sort of slip down the slope to be a game best left to the Marxists and whatever other misguided historical determinists want to engage in it.

    They didn't predict a workers paradise? Are you sure? The "Lefty" press also gave us wonderful PR for Stalin and Mao. And I also seem to remember those cheerful, often bearded, lefties (who never predict anything positive, by the way) predicting that the US would get bogged down in its efforts to topple the Taliban, too. Even if turns out they are right on Iraq or anything else you mention (and the verdict is still out, mind you), I fail to see how that proves anything. You're aware of the old adage about broken watches? To that, I'd add that I think it's pathetic and sick the "Lefty" press takes great pleasure in being right on this issue so far, as do you...

    I'm not making excuses for the cover up or attempting to downplay its seriousness. I think it's pathetic and par for the course from this Pentagon (see Jessica Lynch) or any Pentagon from any bygone era. My take is they panicked when they realized what happened and to preserve the family's feelings and their media star's image, they lied. They should have known better. It's tough to keep secrets nowadays from the Press.

    It's funny you malign the press all the time for not being hard enough on certain issues such as this. But here is another example of where it ferreted out a lie and cover-up that will ultimately make the President and the war effort look bad. Will you adjust your opinion? I doubt it...

    They are capable of committing murder?
     
  21. countezero Registered Senior Member

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    I stand by my statements. And I think it says more about the poster than it does about anything else.
     
  22. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    the physcail evidence appears to point that his own men killed him exacution style the ballistics showed he was shot 3 times in the forhead by m-16s withen 20 yards
     
  23. countezero Registered Senior Member

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