Neighbor: The Door of Paradise

[(Q)]

It is part of the test to recognize the true One among the many claims. But I believe it isn’t as difficult as it may seem. If a person uses their reason sincerely and genuinely seeks guidance, the truth becomes clear.

Sorry, but Islam demands you give up reason, sincerity and truth in order to believe the lies.

 

[(Q)]

Biology describes the process, but it doesn’t explain the origin, the purpose, or the selection of circumstances.

To me, the most reasonable explanation is that there is a higher, intelligent cause who sustains this entire chain and assigns each person’s place, time, and situation.

You believe that because you are ignorant of the world around you.

If you think this conclusion is not logical, then I would genuinely like to hear why, and how you explain this chain without appealing to intention or guidance.

The answers are simple; evidence and facts explain why you are not logical.

Life cycles are understood, yes, but that only explains how living things continue, not why they exist in the first place. The presence of ordered biological systems, genetics, and stable natural laws does not explain why these systems exist at all, why the laws of nature are so precise, or why there is life instead of nothing.

Science describes the mechanism, step by step. It cannot explain why the entire system came into existence, why it is law-governed, or why anything exists rather than nothing.

So saying that understanding life cycles removes the need for a creator mixes two different issues. Knowing the process does not answer the question of the origin or cause behind the whole system.

Purpose and cause are philosophical questions that currently have no answers, you can make up anything you want and believe it. That is what Islam has done, made up nonsense and you believe it.

 

[(Q)]

Judging a religion by the actions of its followers is not always fair.

Of course it is fair. By your own words, your God demands men kill other men. That, among a host of other insane demands by your religion does not require the actions of its flock to understand Islam is a violent religion. However, Muslims actions continue to support the violence.

Should we judge Judaism itself by what certain people in Israel are doing today, even when they are committing oppression and killing innocent people? Of course not. In the same way, Islam should not be judged by Muslims who fail to follow its teachings.

Judaism also has demands for killing people. Religions are violent.

 

[(Q)]

You raise an important point. But when we think about it carefully, it shows us something else too. With so many different beliefs in the world, it is clear that not all of them can be true at the same time. The truth of a belief does not depend on how many people accept it. A belief can be common and still be mistaken, and something rare can still be correct.

So among all these claims, only one can truly be right. And the right one must be the one that stands firmly on reason, coherence and sound evidence. That is why a sincere seeker has to examine ideas thoughtfully and follow the one that proves itself through clarity and logic.

Islam is very far away from reason, coherence, evidence, clarity and logic. You are either lying or deluded to believe that nonsense.

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

Yes and contributions to science and scholarship but that was many centuries ago.
We have to look at what Islam is today, in Islamic states and secular/ non Muslim countries like the UK.

It was also after they had conquered those counties and imposed Islam upon them.

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

Judging a religion by the actions of its followers is not always fair. Should we judge Judaism itself by what certain people in Israel are doing today, even when they are committing oppression and killing innocent people? Of course not. In the same way, Islam should not be judged by Muslims who fail to follow its teachings.

Yes, you judge the actions and that which informs them. As for Israel it is the actions of Muslims (and others) which inform their response.

 

[DaveC426913]

You raise an important point. But when we think about it carefully, it shows us something else too. With so many different beliefs in the world, it is clear that not all of them can be true at the same time. The truth of a belief does not depend on how many people accept it. A belief can be common and still be mistaken, and something rare can still be correct.

So among all these claims, only one can truly be right. And the right one must be the one that stands firmly on reason, coherence and sound evidence. That is why a sincere seeker has to examine ideas thoughtfully and follow the one that proves itself through clarity and logic.

All correct.

Which leads one inevitably to not accepting the existence of *any of the gods until and unless compelling, independently verifiable and repeatable direct evidence presents itself.

Prophets are hearsay. Not direct evidence.



Try to take Q's comments in context. We're not all like that. He is angry and prefers insults over civility. You and I may disagree, but i don't have to call you a liar to argue my case.

 

[TheVat]

So among all these claims, only one can truly be right. And the right one must be the one that stands firmly on reason, coherence and sound evidence. That is why a sincere seeker has to examine ideas thoughtfully and follow the one that proves itself through clarity and logic

Your fallacy may be in assuming that human minds have the scope to embrace all the true statements that might apply to the universal God and form a coherent and accurate understanding. But God could be like the elephant which some blind men are touching. One feels the leg and says it is like a tree trunk. Another feels the trunk and says it is like a firehose that breathes. Another feels the side of its body and says it is like a huge boiler tank. Etc. All the blind men are using empirical method and making "true" statements about what their senses tell them. But that doesn't make them "right" about the nature of elephants.

Similarly, all the religions might be describing their experiences fairly and accurately, but they are each like one of the blind men. None are more "right" than the other, and all are limited in their understanding.

 

[TheVat]

Then, why are Muslim run societies have the most poverty, most violence, most corruption on the planet?

No, no, those are not REAL Muslims!

Yes, I am also catching a whiff of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

That said, you could help us out if you would post some evidence that Muslim run nations do have worse poverty, corruption and so on. Backing such claims is useful in a discussion.

 

[(Q)]

No, no, those are not REAL Muslims!

Yes, I am also catching a whiff of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

That said, you could help us out if you would post some evidence that Muslim run nations do have worse poverty, corruption and so on. Backing such claims is useful in a discussion.

Sorry, I thought that would be the easy part, plugging in 'muslim societies poverty' brought up a wealth of information showing in great detail why those societies are drowning in poverty. *hint* its the religion.

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

It is part of the test to recognize the true One among the many claims. But I believe it isn’t as difficult as it may seem. If a person uses their reason sincerely and genuinely seeks guidance, the truth becomes clear.

Really, the truth is spread out over all religions and philosophies. Each has part of the truth, some a little more than others. But none has the whole truth, not even more than a small percentage.

 

[TheVat]

Sorry, I thought that would be the easy part, plugging in 'muslim societies poverty' brought up a wealth of information showing in great detail why those societies are drowning in poverty. *hint* its the religion.

Partly religion, yes, and partly long-term effects of Western colonialism on those regions where Islam is predominant. I found this analysis...

The Vicious Cycle of Poverty and Violence in the Islamic World - Mehmet Öğütçü – Global Panorama

As a diplomat, businessman, and traveler, I have visited 135 countries. In many of them, I have lived and worked, observing different cultures, languages,

www.globalpanorama.org

...had some nuance on the topic. I agree with the author that Islam failing to embrace modern social structures has been part of the problem. He writes:

The rote-based educational system, the limited participation of women in economic and social life, inequalities created by the capitalist world order, distrust in justice, disconnection from the world, corruption, bribery, and poor governance are all contributing factors to the deepening of poverty in the Islamic world. The concentration of oil and natural gas revenues in the hands of a few elites in the Middle East and Eurasia is another reason hindering local development. These structural inequalities exacerbate poverty, and autocratic regimes, which lack accountability and transparency, complicate the issue even further.

 

[Abdullah Masud]

All correct.

Which leads one inevitably to not accepting the existence of *any of the gods until and unless compelling, independently verifiable and repeatable direct evidence presents itself.

Prophets are hearsay. Not direct evidence.

I can’t agree with you on that point. One of the clearest signs of prophethood is that Allah gives His messengers miracles which no human being can produce. For the final Prophet, the greatest miracle is the Holy Quran, and one of its most astonishing miracles is its language itself.

Anyone who truly understands Arabic and reads the Quran with sincerity can immediately feel that this is not ordinary human speech. Its structure, its rhythm, its imagery, its precision, the way it moves the heart and challenges the mind, nothing in Arabic literature comes close to it. You are already aware that pre-Islamic Arabia was a pinnacle of linguistic mastery. Poets were like celebrities, and the Arabs were unmatched in eloquence. But when the Quran was recited, many of these masters were shaken. Some admitted straight away that no poet, no scholar, no human could ever craft language like this. Many accepted Islam simply by hearing a few verses.

And this miracle is not lost to history. It remains alive today, exactly as it was revealed, preserved in countless written copies and memorized by millions. No other book has ever been protected and transmitted like this.

So if someone truly wants to examine the prophethood of the final Messenger, the most direct way is to study the Quran in its original Arabic. Its miraculous nature is rooted in its language, and no translation can carry that power. That is why scholars throughout history were cautious about translations; they knew that the Quran’s linguistic miracle cannot be reproduced in any other tongue.

 

[Pinball1970]

Anyone who truly understands Arabic and reads the Quran with sincerity can immediately feel that this is not ordinary human speech.

According to who? Muslim scholars? Have they read the OT in it's original Hebrew? How about John in Greek? The Odyssey? Can they read Cuneiform? Studied Gilgamesh? Sanskrit for Rig Veda? Plutarch? Virgil? Plato's Republic?

There are countless examples of astonishing works of ancient literature that predate the Koran.
If the Koran is divine in it's literary composition, why is so utterly backwards in it's science and morality?
If it is so unique why does it rely on stolen stories from the Jews and Christians?

 

[(Q)]

I can’t agree with you on that point. One of the clearest signs of prophethood is that Allah gives His messengers miracles which no human being can produce. For the final Prophet, the greatest miracle is the Holy Quran, and one of its most astonishing miracles is its language itself.

Anyone who truly understands Arabic and reads the Quran with sincerity can immediately feel that this is not ordinary human speech. Its structure, its rhythm, its imagery, its precision, the way it moves the heart and challenges the mind, nothing in Arabic literature comes close to it. You are already aware that pre-Islamic Arabia was a pinnacle of linguistic mastery. Poets were like celebrities, and the Arabs were unmatched in eloquence. But when the Quran was recited, many of these masters were shaken. Some admitted straight away that no poet, no scholar, no human could ever craft language like this. Many accepted Islam simply by hearing a few verses.

And this miracle is not lost to history. It remains alive today, exactly as it was revealed, preserved in countless written copies and memorized by millions. No other book has ever been protected and transmitted like this.

So if someone truly wants to examine the prophethood of the final Messenger, the most direct way is to study the Quran in its original Arabic. Its miraculous nature is rooted in its language, and no translation can carry that power. That is why scholars throughout history were cautious about translations; they knew that the Quran’s linguistic miracle cannot be reproduced in any other tongue.

This is all Islamic propaganda and lies.

 

[Pinball1970]

No other book has ever been protected and transmitted like this

Not many other books have been spread by sword quite like the Koran has I will give you that.
Christianity? Yes, although Jesus himself never killed anyone or ordered any battles or attacks. The opposite in fact he urged his followers to love their enemies and turn the other cheek.
He got upset with the money lenders in the temple as reported in the NT but most scholars agree that story is not accurate.

 

[exchemist]

Sorry, I thought that would be the easy part, plugging in 'muslim societies poverty' brought up a wealth of information showing in great detail why those societies are drowning in poverty. *hint* its the religion.

Could you post a good one from a respected source then, which shows the religion is responsible? When I tried it I got a load of references from rather obscure sources that I don’t know.

 

[exchemist]

I can’t agree with you on that point. One of the clearest signs of prophethood is that Allah gives His messengers miracles which no human being can produce. For the final Prophet, the greatest miracle is the Holy Quran, and one of its most astonishing miracles is its language itself.

Anyone who truly understands Arabic and reads the Quran with sincerity can immediately feel that this is not ordinary human speech. Its structure, its rhythm, its imagery, its precision, the way it moves the heart and challenges the mind, nothing in Arabic literature comes close to it. You are already aware that pre-Islamic Arabia was a pinnacle of linguistic mastery. Poets were like celebrities, and the Arabs were unmatched in eloquence. But when the Quran was recited, many of these masters were shaken. Some admitted straight away that no poet, no scholar, no human could ever craft language like this. Many accepted Islam simply by hearing a few verses.

And this miracle is not lost to history. It remains alive today, exactly as it was revealed, preserved in countless written copies and memorized by millions. No other book has ever been protected and transmitted like this.

So if someone truly wants to examine the prophethood of the final Messenger, the most direct way is to study the Quran in its original Arabic. Its miraculous nature is rooted in its language, and no translation can carry that power. That is why scholars throughout history were cautious about translations; they knew that the Quran’s linguistic miracle cannot be reproduced in any other tongue.

I must agree with you about the poetic nature of the Quran. When I lived in Dubai in the 1980s there was a TV programme introducing the Quran to English-speaking viewers, which included readings from it in Arabic. Even though I only knew a very few words of Arabic and could not understand the readings, I came away with the insight that it is really poetic in style.

What was disappointing however was the exegesis afterwards. That seemed rather unclear and repetitive to me.

 

[DaveC426913]

I can’t agree with you on that point.

And that's OK. I didn't expect you to.

Your beliefs are your beliefs. But:

Anyone who truly understands Arabic and reads the Quran with sincerity can immediately feel that this is not ordinary human speech. Its structure, its rhythm, its imagery, its precision, the way it moves the heart and challenges the mind, nothing in Arabic literature comes close to it.

We have a saying around here: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

My bar for accepting the existence of Creator of the universe, Ruler of All is set a little higher than "This book is really beautifally written."

 

[TheVat]

Anyone who truly understands Arabic and reads the Quran with sincerity can immediately feel that this is not ordinary human speech. Its structure, its rhythm, its imagery, its precision, the way it moves the heart and challenges the mind, nothing in Arabic literature comes close to it. You are already aware that pre-Islamic Arabia was a pinnacle of linguistic mastery. Poets were like celebrities, and the Arabs were unmatched in eloquence. But when the Quran was recited, many of these masters were shaken. Some admitted straight away that no poet, no scholar, no human could ever craft language like this. Many accepted Islam simply by hearing a few verses.

Sorry, but this reads as ethnocentric boasting. I'm sure we could find people who would boast of Garcia Lorca or Shakespeare or Tagore or Rilke as "pinnacles" too. Your argument is a magical fairy dust argument.