Nearly passed out today.
- Thread starter Ghost_007
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I am not sure but think Apoptosis is a sub category of Necrosis. I.e. cellular commanded necrosis, not for example trauma or acid destruction necrosis.
Here are some food agents than can promote selective cancer cell death and the path ways they operate in:
Here is link to the article this illustration is taken form:
http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/content/28/2/233.full#TBL1
Abstract
Apoptosis, a form of programmed cell death, plays a fundamental role in the maintenance of tissues and organ systems by providing a controlled cell deletion to balanced cell proliferation. The last decade has witnessed an exponential increase in the number of studies investigating how different components of the diet interact at the molecular and cellular level to determine the fate of a cell. It is now apparent that many dietary chemopreventive agents with promise for human consumption can also preferentially inhibit the growth of tumor cells by targeting one or more signaling intermediates leading to induction of apoptosis. In this brief review, we summarize the available evidence for dietary chemopreventive substances as inducers of apoptosis in cancer cells. These emerging data suggest that some of these dietary agents especially those which humans could be persuaded to consume may be utilized in the prevention and management of cancer.
Here are some food agents than can promote selective cancer cell death and the path ways they operate in:
Here is link to the article this illustration is taken form:
http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/content/28/2/233.full#TBL1
Abstract
Apoptosis, a form of programmed cell death, plays a fundamental role in the maintenance of tissues and organ systems by providing a controlled cell deletion to balanced cell proliferation. The last decade has witnessed an exponential increase in the number of studies investigating how different components of the diet interact at the molecular and cellular level to determine the fate of a cell. It is now apparent that many dietary chemopreventive agents with promise for human consumption can also preferentially inhibit the growth of tumor cells by targeting one or more signaling intermediates leading to induction of apoptosis. In this brief review, we summarize the available evidence for dietary chemopreventive substances as inducers of apoptosis in cancer cells. These emerging data suggest that some of these dietary agents especially those which humans could be persuaded to consume may be utilized in the prevention and management of cancer.
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To be very simplistic apoptosis is suicide while necrosis is murder. Apoptosis is programmed cell death and the cell participates in its own demise. In necrosis, the cell is overwhelmed by external cues which damage its ability to maintain homeostasis [e.g. necrosis of heart muscle during a myocardial infarct]. Apoptosis is the logical normal physiological end of a cell, while necrotic tissue is a pathological by product
Well I don't see from Ghosts symptoms: general feeling of well being, good diet, moderate fitness levels how you can associate necrosis with his physiology. Necrosis is always manifest, permanent irrreversible damages to body tissues cannot be expressed as short bursts of aggression and then revert to a normal physiology.
Whatever else necrosis is, it is HIGHLY VISIBLE because the damage to tissues has a dramatic impact on normal functioning\
even a simple necrotic leg wound from a spider bite for example:
Cannot be confused with an anxiety attack
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Sam, trust me. I may be explaining it wrong but what im saying is exactly what happens. I honestly dont know how to explain it any simpler. You are skipping the stages of shock and going from compensating (for instance the bodies normal responce to a low blood sugar) and going straight to death and skipping all the steps in between
There are 4 stages of shock compensated, decompensated, ireversable and death. So if we look at glucose in the first stage as you say the liver tries to compensate by releasing stores of Glycogen and converting them back to Glucose. However what happens when it has exusted its surplies? Then you get decompensated shock of the cells where they stop producing ATP, ect ect.
The bit your missing is that at this stage its still reversable, so for instance if you shoot someone up with glucose (if unconcious) or if they are still concious giving them a sugary drink REVERSES this so you dont GET the big areas of necrotic tissue that you showed. Necrosis is a proccess, its not like a person where you shoot them in the head they go from being alive to dead.
Thats what our treatments are aimed to do, this is why the ambulance services exist. Our main role is the treatment of shock (in all its forms), we give O2 to try to reverse hypoxia, we give glucose to stop hypoglucimia, we use fluids and posture to correct hypotension, we rescusite to stop necrosis of the brain and heart (ie brain death).
I have tried to explain the pathway over and over again and i cant think of any other way to say the same thing.
Low ATP means higher resting potentual which means more easerly fired which means sizures which (if in the frontal lobe) means personality changes.
There are other ways to change the resting and threshold potentuals of nerons but this is the hypoxic pathway and it works the same for glucose.
Noradrenilin acts inside the cell to raise the resting potentual (from memory)
There are other things which can change the threshold potentual (by playing with the membrane of the cells)
Seriously i dont know how to describe it any differently for you. All i can do is give you this again http://www.australianprescriber.com/magazine/34/4/115/8
If you want to know more then you will have to study seizures more. I cant give you what ive got because its copywrighted for uni.
There are 4 stages of shock compensated, decompensated, ireversable and death. So if we look at glucose in the first stage as you say the liver tries to compensate by releasing stores of Glycogen and converting them back to Glucose. However what happens when it has exusted its surplies? Then you get decompensated shock of the cells where they stop producing ATP, ect ect.
The bit your missing is that at this stage its still reversable, so for instance if you shoot someone up with glucose (if unconcious) or if they are still concious giving them a sugary drink REVERSES this so you dont GET the big areas of necrotic tissue that you showed. Necrosis is a proccess, its not like a person where you shoot them in the head they go from being alive to dead.
Thats what our treatments are aimed to do, this is why the ambulance services exist. Our main role is the treatment of shock (in all its forms), we give O2 to try to reverse hypoxia, we give glucose to stop hypoglucimia, we use fluids and posture to correct hypotension, we rescusite to stop necrosis of the brain and heart (ie brain death).
I have tried to explain the pathway over and over again and i cant think of any other way to say the same thing.
Low ATP means higher resting potentual which means more easerly fired which means sizures which (if in the frontal lobe) means personality changes.
There are other ways to change the resting and threshold potentuals of nerons but this is the hypoxic pathway and it works the same for glucose.
Noradrenilin acts inside the cell to raise the resting potentual (from memory)
There are other things which can change the threshold potentual (by playing with the membrane of the cells)
Seriously i dont know how to describe it any differently for you. All i can do is give you this again http://www.australianprescriber.com/magazine/34/4/115/8
If you want to know more then you will have to study seizures more. I cant give you what ive got because its copywrighted for uni.
I work with sportsmen, so I am aware of ATP synthesis. I've also done a seminar on stroke therapy so I am aware of how the GABA cascade works and the role of hypoxia in seizures. But I have to say, I don't see the connection you are making. It seems to me you are bypassing the anxiety which is the main problem in my opinion and focusing on the aggression which is only a minor component and typical in depressed males due to the combination of glucocorticoids and androgens
Sam, i focused on agression because its what you used to incorectly rule out most of my list. As for why im not willing to say its anxiaty thats really simple, ITS MY TRAINING.
If you go back to my first post you will see that i said "anxiaty is a diognosis of elimination, in order to say something is anxiaty you have to rule everything else out". Further more my training states (VERY clearly) you dont treat for the most benign condition (ie anxiaty). You treat for the most server conditions, ie
As i said before 98% of these cases WILL turn out to be just an anxiaty atack but that isnt good enough to diognose THIS case as anxiaty.
Until proven otherwise i would treat this case as a TIA, cadiac event or seizure, NOT an anxiaty atack. I dont know what your training is like but concidering your training i doubt its in emergency care. Mine is
Only a bad clinicion would take what we have been told by Ghost and dismiss it ON THAT BASIS as being anxiaty, thats why you have humans running Ambulances and A&Es not computers.
I get that, but in my opinion, you're overestimating the level of aggression. Usually my approach is to go by what patients DO not by what they THINK or FEEL. We all think and feel stuff we would never act on. Ghost hasn't attacked anyone - he just felt like he wanted to, the kind of aggression that you deal with in emergency medicine is the kind that requires control or sedation in order to be able to treat the patient. I eliminated those six because taken together, the brevity of his attack, his quick recovery and his subsequent symptoms do not support that diagnosis. Those problems do not resolve themselves without intervention.
But you are right in suggesting that he needs to be tested before any diagnosis can be made. We are all shooting in the dark here.
Okay, I didn't know that. If you have tachy or brady doesn't it affect your normal activities?
what do you mean? when you are having a run of it or normally?
If you mean normally no, i dont belive there is any long term effects
As for when they are having a run of it well that depends, some pts are asymptomatic, others have server symptoms.
There is a truisium they teach everyone straight away "patients dont read the textbooks"
However hes not asymptomatic.
Blue are my comments
If i had to guess (and it would be a guess based only on this) i actually wouldnt be looking at anxiaty straight away. My first thought is actually syncope, probably vasovagal. Anxiaty would be my second thought
However my job isnt to look at a person and say "ha, i think you have x", its to look at everything it could possibly be, then look at the worst case senario for each of those options and carefully rule out each of those working from most serious and urgent to least. What you are doing is DANGERIOUS sam, you are leaping to a conclusion which ignores the most serious potentuals and only looks at the least signifcant with very limited infomation and no physical examination. I dont know if your a cliniction or a resurcher (if you are a resurcher i apoligise for holding you to the standeds of a clincion) but thats a VERY dangerious and highly irrisponcible thing to do.
Also i suspect there is alot more to the case (this isnt ment to be having a go at Ghost), all those that are listed are nero signs but i suspect (even if it IS anxiaty) that there are cardiac signs. Even an anxiaty atack would make a pt tachy, rapid resp rate, blood pressure would tend to go up.
Sam said:
When stressed a person feels restless, can't get whatever is stressing them off their mind. I've seen friends stressed out, one used to start pulling at his hair, the other would just drift off so would stop listening to someone that was talking to him. I've been stressed with exams at school (before uni) and stuff so I sort of know what it feels like, my skin would feel dry, hair would feel weaker, loss of appetite (I use these things as a barometer). At uni I could deal much better, I plan everything mentally, do what I can and leave the variables, the stuff out of my control, I don't worry about those things at all, I am on an extreme in this regard. I don't panic in dangerous situations, as with everything I try to remain calm and methodical. Right now I feel fine physically, my skin feels good, hair is strong and thick, I am eating fine, I haven't been worrying generally. I have issues in my life, my close friends wonder how I cope, and tbh I don't know. Is all that stuff building up inside me? can that even happen? I really don't know. Maybe I am stressed and just don't realise. Regarding the exercise and aggression, maybe, I can't say for sure.
I am sort of scared of dogs but I've not been bitten or anything. Maybe I saw a dog that was frothing at the mouth and crapped myself? So I saw something that possibly had rabies and almost passed out, which would sort of make you right. Can't rule anything out just yet.
Idle Mind said:
Nope. Breakfast was what I usually have, around 2 hours before the incident I had a lucozade energy drink, again, not anything out of the ordinary.
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Thanks for the posts Sam and Asguard, very informative. I still am not 100% sure what happened, I just want to go to the doc and tell him what happened but the soonest appointment I could get was on Monday, might be too late but I really want to get to the bottom of this. No way I can just brush this under the carpet, because something obviously happened.
this sounds so familiar! like symptomatic from an injury causing the bodies immune system to become the enemy.
you should look into a side job helping solve a problem with degenerative disease.
personally im lazy, i would find some way to by pass it all, what ever is attacking the damage is there. the regenerative cells are blocked and the signals are too, so cells are being damaged by too much or too little of possibly glucose. by pass it somehow. make it possible for signls to reach their destination, so the body can do the rest of the math for you. hehehe
oops that was not part of the thread!
to original poster, go have a ekg done and check for blood sugar levels. the agression could be a side effect from both symptomatically speaking. also the test maybe inconclusive, getting in during the episode would be more productive.
to original poster, go have a ekg done and check for blood sugar levels. the agression could be a side effect from both symptomatically speaking. also the test maybe inconclusive, getting in during the episode would be more productive.
I think you should go to the ER. The change in behavior (I.E. you got pissed off for no reason) suggests that it could be bad (i.e. mini stroke but I'm not a doctor so...).
Okay, I'm gonna see the doc on Monday, I'll tell him/her exactly what happened, I'm going to take my time (they have a reputation for trying to keep appointments under 10 mins). S/he will do whatever s/he thinks needs to be done, and if I need to, I'll suggest:
EKG test.
Check blood sugar levels
Anything else I should mention?
EKG test.
Check blood sugar levels
Anything else I should mention?