Ms Rowling: insightful critic of gender policy or myopic [insult]

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What is one to make of this phenomenon? I simply do not accept that there are several members of this forum with very poor reading comprehension capabilities. What are the most likely, most viable, explanations for this phenomenon? Just curious.

That said, and slightly OT, but this is partly what I mean when I say things like, "I often struggle to see the human(ity) in humans."
This is very common. Politicians do it often. If someone asks a tough question, they answer the question they WISH you had asked, instead of the one you asked.

In this cast it's easier to attack and mock the concept that "a trans woman is identical to a cisgender woman" than "a trans woman is a woman." And mocking things is more fun than serious discussion.
 
I find it rather... curious that this needs to be repeated several times, by more than one poster, and yet we still have no indication as to whether or not it is understood.
There's literature to be found on motivated or strategic misinterpretation/misunderstanding, which is where I think such a phenomenon would fall.

Given how much of this thread is driven by pretenses not of direct advocacy for the particular political arguments at stake—(they're not anti-trans)—but objections against the objections against—(O! poor J.K.! so unjustly criticized by those scurrilous trans people and their allies!)—one might think the actual arguments and criticism were important to the critique against the criticism.

But since Rowling is, in this, nothing more than a celebrity rehash of Christian-right crackpottery, it's easy enough to guess why her supporters refuse to acknowledge history.

To reiterate, from August↑:

Honestly, I expect it's because they recognize the implications. Let's face it, these people aren't as uninformed as they pretend to be. They already know they're running on superstition and emotion. That's why they can't countenance Rowling's behavior a year ago. Or the year before that. Or six or even seven years ago. And it's why they refuse to countenance the history of the issue before that. Rowling can only be an insightful critic on this issue if we abandon science and history; no wonder her supporters are such a mewling, terrified bunch.

At that point, Rowling supporters had ducked a question for two months↑; there's a reason they were afraid of a one-word answer.

And we already knew, even then, that Rowling's own words↑ just don't matter to her supporters.

What we have in Rowling's own words, ca. 2023, is refusal and provocation: Actually looking to the source tweet↱ shows us something more than the Entertainment Weekly report told us: Rowling chose to pick that fight; she chose to post a photograph of some words and respond.

The question remains:

What safe space, then, do you think she requires? What is this thing where someone like Rowling takes an explicitly transphobic position but somehow remains aloof from the transphobia?

The people who need that safe space for harm are not any new phenomenon; notaracists and notamisogynists have been doing that routine for generations; it's buried in everything from objections to political correctness on through projections of cancel culture. When Americans, for instance, do that bluster about how this is supposed to be a Christian nation, they're usually not doing the compassion part, but the authority part that seeks to exclude from Christ's compassion. It's actually their rebuke of Christ Himself, and aside from razzing them for believing in God, we might observe the part about the betrayal or reversal of principle is actually the important point. And, sure, it's important to remind that the Christian-nation rhetoric is wrong according to the historical record, but at some point we need to stop toddling back and forth between the who-said and start paying attention to what the words mean. Here's an obscure joke: I'm in a roomful of scientists; I should know better than to use the word "function" because they don't understand that particular usage.

It's a very particular joke because you actually have to see the phenomenon occur repeatedly before it even occurs to recognize such an unbelievable explanation for the dearth, i.e., "no indication as to whether or not it is understood", is even possible. That is, you must first recognize the dearth in order to even wonder what it means.

Thus: What do the words mean? What does the argument do if it is put into action?

A persistent sort of unresolved issue↗: Can we agree that refusing censorship is not a violation of free speech? This is one of those square circle things; by definition, a refusal to censor is not an act of censorship. I've reiterated↗ the question, referred↗ to it, and even connected↗ it to other parts of history lending toward why I might ask. And the curious thing about the apparent lack of an answer isn't really the one I originally asked, but another sort of radio silence about self-defeating logic in any number of related discussions. That, however, is a matter of perspective and priority.

For instance, the other day I encountered what looks like an argument that if someone destroyed evidence, then it never existed. The explanation is only complicated because it must account for what isn't there.¹

So, again: Given how much of this thread is driven not by direct advocacy of the particular political arguments at stake, but objections against the objections against, one might think the actual arguments and criticism were important to the critique against the criticism.

Compared to psychoanalyzing the ins and outs of what we see, the parsimonious suggestion is that confusion over why Rowling is criticized is too easily resolved by attending history. And there are any number of ways someone might fall into that hole, but it's not ours to write mitigating explanations for uncertain stories we can only project.
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Notes:

¹ Toward Rowling, what is known is that she deleted twenty-seven tweets, but the deletion record doesn't tell us what was in them; beyond that, the standard for excluding witnesses who claim to have seen or screencapped is pretty low.

(For whatever it's worth, even the AIs think she deleted tweets. Or maybe that depends on what you're looking for. Since I had to scroll past it, it was hard to not notice. Image in Spoiler.)

google-20260109-aioverview-rowlingdeletedtweets-detal-bw.png
 
For instance, the other day I encountered what looks like an argument that if someone destroyed evidence, then it never existed. The explanation is only complicated because it must account for what isn't there.¹
I've on occasion referred to this as the Faurisson Argument, but if Faurisson were alive today, even he would be apt to say, "Dude, that's not how the internets works."
 
That said, what do I know? I am plainly too "involved" (and actual knowledge is never a good thing in any discussion) and tend to respond to blatant idiocy and dishonesty with sarcasm, i.e., the KKK spokesperson thing. Clearly, a more civil response--for those who plainly value "civility" over decency, honesty, and rightness--would have been something along the lines of, "perhaps you might be well-suited for a job in the Trump regime".
 
That said, what do I know? I am plainly too "involved" (and actual knowledge is never a good thing in any discussion) and tend to respond to blatant idiocy and dishonesty with sarcasm, i.e., the KKK spokesperson thing.
If you really dislike the KKK, then you are too emotional to have a rational discussion about the topic. I mean, why can't you mention some of the GOOD things they have done, like increased property values?
 
If you really dislike the KKK, then you are too emotional to have a rational discussion about the topic. I mean, why can't you mention some of the GOOD things they have done, like increased property values?
Has somebody in this thread praised the KKK because they increase property values?
 
Seriously? Use your brain, James, nothing is ever fully deleted from the internet--the content of the posts has been posted. Again, red the thread.
Can you give me a post number where the deleted posts appear, or where a link to the deleted posts appears, please?
 
Can you give me a post number where the deleted posts appear, or where a link to the deleted posts appears, please?
How about you answer this first, as you have previously ignored this request: Can you explain to me how you believe that a person would use a court case or the outcome of a court case as "evidence" to support a "claim that Rowling is a bigot against trans people"? Or, more simply: How would a court case or the outcome of a court case be used as "evidence" that "Rowling is a bigot against trans people"? As per this post:
It is also on topic for the thread, because Tiassa is trying to use it to evidence his previous claim that Rowling is a bigot against trans people.

Yet again, the matter of the court case was provided to support the claim of JKR having deleted posts. Courts do not determine whether or not a person is a bigot. Tiassa has not claimed as much, and neither has anyone else. Well, rather, you and Dave either stupidly or dishonestly attested to as much, but that is beside the point as you are neither arguing against Dave or yourself (so far as I can tell).

Regardless, there is this tweet:

and Tiassa's accompanying text:
And, as previously documented in this thread↑:

In one tweet, Rowling shared a picture of Khelif's fight with Carini, implying that Khelif was a man taking pleasure in hurting a woman. Following the lawsuit, Rowling removed many of her posts related to Khelif from her X account, a move interpreted by some as an attempt to reduce her online presence and avoid further scrutiny. Despite this, some of Rowling's retweets remain visible, including one related to another controversy involving Taiwanese athlete Lin Yu-ting.

Just curious, how much evidence do you need? Apparently you find mockery of transgender high school girls*--or "trans-identified men" as Rowling puts it--mockery of transgender Paralympic athletes, mockery other transgender female athletes, and mockery of cisgender--that is, non transgender--athletes (because, apparently, they appear transgender to Rowling--not like she's got anything other than appearance to back up her suspicions) acceptable, and even your lackey, Dave, finds JKR's bathroom arguments weak and and the sort of "ploy almost universally used by bigots." (Something which he rather hilariously tried to walk back subsequently.) So what would it take for you to concede that JKR is, in fact, transphobic?

* Something which I find especially perverse and cruel, given that transgender youths are especially prone to depression and suicidality, along with an abundance of regular cruelty from their own peers. Given that JKR is a public figure with an enormous platform, I think that girl would have been well within her rights to have sought legal action against Rowling; but I guess not everyone is as petty, cruel, and vindictive as Rowling.
 
parmalee:
How about you answer this first, as you have previously ignored this request: Can you explain to me how you believe that a person would use a court case or the outcome of a court case as "evidence" to support a "claim that Rowling is a bigot against trans people"?
Isn't that obvious to you? Okay. I'll explain.

In this thread, Tiassa quoted an article from Variety, which reported that "J.K. Rowling and Elon Musk have both been named in a criminal complaint filed to French authorities over alleged 'acts of aggravated cyber harassment' against Algerian boxer and newly crowned Olympic champion Imane Khelif."

The alleged acts of harassment apparently relate to the boxer's identity as a transgender athlete. The implication is that the harassment, if it occurred, took place because JKR doesn't like trans athletes competing in certain sports (e.g. boxing) with cis women.

A court case that called JKR as a witness or defendant would presumably involve some probing or cross-examination of JKR, to try to make her views on trans people clear to the judge and/or jury. The findings of the court would then most likely draw conclusions about such things as JKR's reliability as an honest witness and her likely views about transgender people. If the court were to judge that JKR has bigoted views against trans people, that might support that claim that Rowling is a bigot against trans people.

Prior to any official findings in any court case, also, some people (e.g. Tiassa) might infer that the mere fact that JKR was "named in a criminal complaint" of this kind is somehow evidence in itself that JKR probably holds bigoted views about transgender people (or athletes, at least).

Hopefully you can see that the fact of the court case makes a far less compelling case for JKR's alleged bigotry than the outcome of the court case might do.

I hope this helps.

Yet again, the matter of the court case was provided to support the claim of JKR having deleted posts.
The case hasn't been decided though. It is alleged, apparently, that JKR deleted some posts (which isn't a crime, by the way). No doubt some possible motives for deleting them are also alleged by some. None of the allegations has been tested in court, yet, as far I you have all informed me.
Courts do not determine whether or not a person is a bigot.
They can. It's not illegal to be a bigot, though.
Tiassa has not claimed as much, and neither has anyone else. Well, rather, you and Dave either stupidly or dishonestly attested to as much...
Okay. I stand corrected. Tiassa does not claim that JKR is a bigot against trans people.

Thanks for clearing that up for me, parmalee.

Just curious, how much evidence do you need?
More than you have provided so far.
Apparently you find mockery of transgender high school girls*--or "trans-identified men" as Rowling puts it--mockery of transgender Paralympic athletes, mockery other transgender female athletes, and mockery of cisgender--that is, non transgender--athletes (because, apparently, they appear transgender to Rowling--not like she's got anything other than appearance to back up her suspicions) acceptable, and even your lackey, Dave, finds JKR's bathroom arguments weak and and the sort of "ploy almost universally used by bigots." (Something which he rather hilariously tried to walk back subsequently.)
Phew! That was a long sentence.

I don't know how you arrived at your conclusion that I find mockery of transgender people acceptable. It can't be based on anything I've written about the matter. I suppose it must be some kind of irrational prejudice you have against me.

You don't seem to like DaveC, either. He's not my "lackey". What advantage do you think he would be trying to gain by pleasing me (assuming that I am pleased by his posts to the forum)? Are you jealous, paramalee? Do you think I have favorites to whom I grant special favors? Do you want to be my "favorite"? Is that what your attack on DaveC is all about?

Do you have any verified examples of these multiple mockeries you allege from JKR?

So what would it take for you to concede that JKR is, in fact, transphobic?
Sufficient evidence.
Given that JKR is a public figure with an enormous platform, I think that girl would have been well within her rights to have sought legal action against Rowling; but I guess not everyone is as petty, cruel, and vindictive as Rowling.
Or maybe legal advice was that legal action would be likely to fail, because a solid case couldn't be made, in whatever instance it is that you're referring to. Just another possibility you might like to consider.

It's hard to tell where the truth lies, when you don't provide any details.
 
Intrigued by the image so I looked it up.
Khelif made 14 punches in 46 seconds
The Italian opponent quit and reportedly said, "it's not fair," when the fight stopped.
She also said that she had never been hit that hard.

I am looking at the back story a little bit.

 
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So it is actually a woman! Wow. I thought also the controversy was because there was a trans athlete involved. There you go

To me SHE looked like a bloke, not just facially but physique wise also.

Reminds of the European athlete in the 80s. EDIT: She was Czech. The wiki article does not go into the gender issue, it was a big deal at the time.

 
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Please do not insult other members.
It's hard to tell where the truth lies, when you don't provide any details.
For the umpteenth time: read the fucking thread, James.

Okay. I stand corrected. Tiassa does not claim that JKR is a bigot against trans people.
Oh, I see. So you truly are just an illiterate fuckwit (or a pathological liar). So then, never mind all that. I'm done wasting my time on persons of your ilk.
 
So it is actually a woman! Wow. I thought also the controversy was because there was a trans athlete involved. There you go

To me SHE looked like a bloke, not just facially but physique wise also.
Khelif was born, raised, and has lived as a female. There is zero evidence in the public domain that she has ever been anything other than female (afaik), or that she has any condition that would put her gender in question (e.g. having X and Y chromosomes, DSDs, being intersex etc).
She did fail, apparently, a gender test conducted by the IBF, but the criteria of the test remain unspecified. However, that testing failure, along with her looks and her boxing performances, has led to speculation.

And I'm sure you didn't mean to be quite so... rude... but to say "it is a woman..." is rather disrespectful, don't you think? Just saying. ;)
 
2028 Summer Olympics.
World Boxing has since been provisionally approved as the boxing organizer at the 2028 Los Angeles Games and has faced pressure from boxers and their federations to create sex eligibility standards.
It should allay some worry for women competitors.
It will be no problem for Imane Khelif.
(2023)Olympic champion Imane Khelif is skipping the Eindhoven Box Cup in the Netherlands less than a week after World Boxing announced mandatory sex testing for all athletes.
independent
 
Khelif was born, raised, and has lived as a female. There is zero evidence in the public domain that she has ever been anything other than female (afaik), or that she has any condition that would put her gender in question (e.g. having X and Y chromosomes, DSDs, being intersex etc).
She did fail, apparently, a gender test conducted by the IBF, but the criteria of the test remain unspecified. However, that testing failure, along with her looks and her boxing performances, has led to speculation.

And I'm sure you didn't mean to be quite so... rude... but to say "it is a woman..." is rather disrespectful, don't you think? Just saying. ;)
Oops, I capitalised the "she" too so readers did not think i was being a dick! I cannot edit now either.
Apologies for that.
 
The testing introduced seems to be one that determines whether one has the Y chromosome or not ("PCR (polymerase chain reaction) or a functional medical equivalent genetic test").

Khelif has opted not to compete, and one may speculate that that it is to avoid testing that might confirm what many already suspect (that she has Y chromosome) but failure to take the test is not itself evidence of failing such a test. I believe she is currently appealing (the requirement to be tested) to the CAS (Court of Arbitration for Sport). However, it should be noted that the arguments for and against are more complex than just saying "she is/is not a woman" as they go in to matters of fairness, safety, dignity, consensus, science, politics, etc.
 
Yes, it's complicated.

This doctor explains something about the advantage of DSD in sport.
" slightly more powerful punch"
Why does DSD cause controversy in sport?
Prof Grossman suggests issues become complicated – and controversial – only really when it comes to competitive sports. For example, when a person can be born with female genitalia, but have the XY chromosome combination typical of males – as well as internal hidden testicles.

In the context of sport, an unusual combination of chromosomes and reproductive organs can boost people’s performance.

“Extra male hormones, particularly during puberty will give a clear advantage with certain sports, such as boxing,” explains Prof Grossman. “It’s complex because someone can absolutely be a biological woman, but if they went through puberty as a male, there would be performance advantages. A DSD would likely boost her level of testosterone, a hormone critical to building muscle and strength and which would increase stamina.

“While these changes are often only small, they become significant with elite sports when a tenth of a second in running – or a slightly more powerful punch as we saw with Khelif – the effects and outcomes can be major.
Telegraph
It's a case of fairness to all competitors.
 
It's a case of fairness to all competitors.
Well that part seems no more disputable than weight classes in boxing.

And DSD is as likely to cause disadvantage as advantage - Klinefelter's for example, where there's XXY, and it usually results in some musculoskeletal weakness and neurological problems (it does not produce superwoman).

The key question should be: can a FFB and nonDSD woman reasonably expect to build sufficiently more fast twitch fibers with training to roughly match the DSD competitor. If no training and determination of will can hope to achieve that, then it would call into question the fairness.
 
She did fail, apparently, a gender test conducted by the IBF, but the criteria of the test remain unspecified. However, that testing failure, along with her looks and her boxing performances, has led to speculation.

The most specific chatter I ever heard suggested that a disreputable doctor used an unreliable karyotype test in which one can have XX chromosomes and still not be female, because one is insufficiently female for having certain markers that don't look feminine enough.

But that's the thing, the most specific claims were a sketchy doctor running a sketchy test for a sketchy organization, and the easiest thing to do would be for those people to explain themselves more clearly, and we can only wonder why that won't happen.

The gender test was conducted by the IBA, not the IBF; the IOC has previously severed ties with IBA for concerns about corruption.

The original discussion of Khelif's gender arose from a three-paragraph Tass↱ article that did not include comment or explanation from any doctor, but only a reference to the boxing organization president and a statement from the Kremlin.

So, yeah, when people suggest the Kremlin is behind this, they're only citing the original article from the editorial office of the Tass website.

Seriously, it's easy enough to hold aside repeated reference to Russia that keeps coming up in this, i.e. Russian doctor, Russian executive, &c., but, yeah it's literally from the Kremlin, per Tass.

J.K. Rowling's↱ take allegedly cites the IBA, quoting, "With an XY karyotype and high testosterone (from which the presence of testes can be strongly - and I mean strongly - inferred), these athletes have, so far, the male-typical biology that is relevant in sport."

Like I said, sketchy. What they did not say is that their gender test confirmed Khelif is biological XY. The phrase "XY karyotype" is, in this usage, pseudoscience intended to skirt that fact.
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Notes:

The Editorial Office of the Tass Website. "IBA has excluded from the world championship athletes who tried to impersonate women". Tass. 25 March 2023. Tass.ru. 10 January 2026. https://tass.ru/sport/17370249

 
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