Most British scientists: Richard Dawkins' work misrepresents science

Environments can obviously be more or less hostile to certain pathways. But the pathway itself has to make sense regardless of any natural environment.

Can't help you there Michael.

Hmm...so I take it you are there opting for The Blind Watchmaker, despite approving of Peltzer's critique? Dawkins and Co will approve. And the great paddoboy's 'I like'says he does too!


Just got back from very nice few hours with girl at Waterbom Park. She hadn't been before and she really enjoys herself.

So I'm not going to let anything spoil my mood.

Think I will take the rest of the day off to work on my algorithm for creating a tornado which can make a Jumbo jet as it passes over a scrap car site.
 
Nice one. See my final comment below.

Extremely low. So exceedingly low, just based on key issues presented in the very first hurdle, ID becomes the rational choice.

Because you say so? Prove it. But you can't. No natural abiogenesis advocate has ever preferred a viable contender. What is the dividing line between complex and 'not very complex'? And, I refer back to your own words in red above.


Anything above ice cream is complex
 
The entire cell structure and machinery, working as a whole, enables that.
Not in a dead or dormant cell.
I'm no specialist in those areas but you do know that a typical oily seed can keep well for many months if the protective coating is not disrupted, right? And once it is disrupted, rancidity will set in very quickly. Whether you want to call that 'nature's clever design' or something else is up to your personal persuasion.
Lots of stuff will not keep. Lots of stuff will. Peptide bonds are among the more durable kinds, actually, even if you don't keep them dry:
wiki said:
A peptide bond can be broken by hydrolysis (the addition of water). In the presence of water they will break down and release 8–16 kilojoule/mol (2–4 kcal/mol)[9] of free energy. This process is extremely slow.

I've got a pile of firewood in my yard that will still harbor complex organizations of peptides years from now, unless I burn it myself. It's doing no maintenance. Without being able to put together durable, robust, long-lived organizations of peptides, living things as we know them would not exist.
 
Lots of stuff will not keep. Lots of stuff will. Peptide bonds are among the more durable kinds, actually, even if you don't keep them dry:
wiki
A peptide bond can be broken by hydrolysis (the addition of water). In the presence of water they will break down and release 8–16 kilojoule/mol (2–4 kcal/mol)[9] of free energy. This process is extremely slow.
I've got a pile of firewood in my yard that will still harbor complex organizations of peptides years from now, unless I burn it myself. It's doing no maintenance. Without being able to put together durable, robust, long-lived organizations of peptides, living things as we know them would not exist.
Dry wood contains mostly long-chain cellulose and other pollysaccharides and lignin. The latter afaik strongly cross-links during drying. I think it's a stretch to call any of those peptides or even peptide polymers but won't bet on it. At any rate such hardy components were first synthesized to form polymer chains bit-by-bit in a living cell. But a living cell is in an aqueous environment, and for living cells you do need special conditions to be maintained if they are to survive and reproduce and generally keep functioning. Rupture a cell wall and death follows rapidly. The machinery no longer functions as a whole.

Your examples do not address the problem of prebiotic synthesis. Formation of biologically useful peptides - hardy or not - in the first place. Moreover consistently and in sufficient concentration to allow for further steps in the right direction i.e. complex functionality. With many additional steps needed thereafter before we can talk of life having appeared.

I'm glad researchers keep trying to find novel scenarios that just might be a useful step IF this or IF that special environmental condition is assumed to prevail.
 
Dry wood contains mostly long-chain cellulose and other pollysaccharides and lignin
Plus some complex organizations of peptides from many sources - often big enough and complex enough to be termed "proteins". They will last for many years, out there stacked against the shed. As long as no living thing tears them apart, and the overhang holds so they don't get soaked by the rain, indefinitely.
At any rate such hardy components were first synthesized to form polymer chains bit-by-bit in a living cell
Irrelevant. Your argument depends on their fragility, their inability to endure without constant repair in any earthly environment whatsoever. That argument is in conflict with my woodpile.
Rupture a cell wall and death follows rapidly. The machinery no longer functions as a whole.
Irrelevant. Abiogenesis began before there were any modern cells, or "functioning" anything.
Your examples do not address the problem of prebiotic synthesis.
Correct. They merely dismiss your impossibility argument - completely: it's gone.

Now that we have reassured ourselves that abiogenesis was easily possible, we can return to the problem of how it happened.
 
Extremely low. So exceedingly low, just based on key issues presented in the very first hurdle, ID becomes the rational choice.
That's an argument from ignorance. "I cannot comprehend how life came to be, so God must have had a hand in it." It is a logical fallacy which was once used for almost every physical phenomena. Nowadays it is restricted to very few issues (fortunately) like creationism.
 
Now that we have reassured ourselves that abiogenesis was easily possible, we can return to the problem of how it happened.
Most sensibly agree with that scientific conclusion, I would just add that it is the only scientific explanation, and again, may have occurred and probably did occur, many times throughout the Universe.

:) But getting back to the Sagan/Dawkins comparison, I found this Interesting article.............

https://richarddawkins.net/2014/03/carl-sagan-took-my-faith-and-gave-me-awe-onfaith/

A research coordinator for the new “Cosmos” recounts his Sagan-inspired journey away from religion.



I was not always an atheist.

I was once a devout and sincere believer in the Christian faith. I am the son and grandson of pastors and missionaries. My family founded one of the country’s largest Bible colleges, Christ for the Nations, from which I earned a theology degree. For years, I contemplated, and began strategizing, a run for national political office under the banner of Christian reform.

I did not begin to question, nor finally abandon, my faith…until I discovered science. And Carl Sagan.

The longer a belief system—any belief system—remains in place, the more likely it is to become an unmovable fixture of that person’s identity. In my experience, most persons of faith who undergo a deconversion experience do so during their middle or high school years. But that is not my story. I did not begin to question, nor finally abandon, my faith until my mid-30s.

That was when I discovered science. And Carl Sagan.

Carl Sagan was an astronomer, astrophysicist, cosmologist and author who became a household name in the early 1980s when his television series “Cosmos: A Personal Journey” became the most watched program in PBS history. Before his untimely death in 1996, Sagan was the nation’s leading science communicator, a regular guest on both the nightly news and “The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson.”

But in my childhood home, Carl Sagan was a fundamentalist caricature of science. He was a figure of scorn and mockery, conjured in conversation only when one needed a large and easy target for pillorying evolution.

“Billions and billions of years” was a “Cosmos”-inspired quote my family and friends would mimic in Sagan’s telltale nasal inflection, always earning animated laugher. Not because it was fun to imitate so singular a personality, but because anyone who believed, much less preached, such nonsense deserved nothing more than sarcastic contempt. And so it was for most of my life.

As the product of a mostly terrific private school education, I never had to worry about encountering something like Sagan’s “Cosmos” in my school science classes. A literal reading of the book of Genesis, including a six-day creation, 6,000-year-old Earth, and a historic Noah and Tower of Babel, constituted our learning of cosmic and human origins. Evolution was a dreadful ploy spat up from the pit of hell, with which the world’s scientists were in complete collusion.

His mission was to build up, not tear down.

The closest I came to Sagan was in my mid-20s, when the film Contact, based on Sagan’s only novel, appeared in theaters. The story centered on a mysterious alien signal and the manner in which the globe’s many cultures processed the realization that they were not alone in the vast universe. I, like many people who saw the film, found it awe-inspiring. I can still remember returning home from the theater on a euphoric cloud, opening my Bible, and reading with wonder the majesty of God’s creative prowess.

A year or so later, I decided to read the novel, and while it entertained a certain ambiguity where matters of faith were concerned, the book initiated my first-ever crisis of faith.Contact raised and inspired questions that neither I nor anyone I knew could satisfactorily answer. I resolved that crisis of faith not by reconciling those quandaries, but rather by listening to those who told me that the questions themselves were either wrong to ponder or not even worthy of my time. I decided to ignore the questions, telling myself my faith was as strong as ever.

But the questions festered, continuing to grow and feeding off my neglect, until they were too large to ignore. I could not be intellectually honest and continue to ignore them. They demanded a verdict. And when I finally turned to face them down a decade or so later, I found that all my years in church and all my academic training was not enough to halt their advance.

I did not abandon my faith because I was hurt or angry or disillusioned. I did not abandon my faith because I wanted to rebel, or live a life of sin, or refuse god’s authority. I left because I could no longer believe. I left because I felt there simply was no convincing evidence for my belief. I left because my faith insulted reason one too many times. I left because once I applied the same level of skepticism and incredulity to Christianity that I always had to all other faiths, it likewise imploded. Once I accepted that the Bible’s account of cosmic and human origins could not possibly be true, I began to realize that it was just the first in an interminably long line of things the Bible was wrong about.

Science killed my faith. Not “science,” the perverse parody invented by some Christians—a nefarious, liberal, secular agenda whose sole purpose is to turn people from god—but rather science, an objective, methodological tool that uses reason and evidence to systematical study the world around us, and which is willing, unlike faith, to change direction with the accumulation of that evidence. Science is a humble and humbling exercise. Science is the impossibly dense core of curiosity—always asking, always seeking, always yearning to know more, never satisfied.

My newfound appreciation of science came, in no small part, from the writings of my old nemesis, Carl Sagan. What I discovered in Sagan’s elevated verse—particularly inThe Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark and within the baker’s dozen of the series “Cosmos”—was one of the most transcendent experiences of my life. Here was a man who could stir both body and, if you will allow me a bit of poetic license, soul.

While Sagan’s personal views set him safely in the camp of atheism, he was more comfortable claiming the title of agnostic. He certainly never made it his mission to destroy anyone’s faith. His sights were always set on something far higher. His mission was to build up, not tear down.

As I read, I began to wonder—why had Sagan been so reviled? His manner was so meek, his words so respectful, his position so evenhanded. He was compassionate and affable, even when he quarreled. Certainly, he was nothing like the thought leaders of modern unbelief, such as Richard Dawkins and the late Christopher Hitchens, who take pride in their public disdain for religion. Sure, Sagan was staking a position against mythology, irrationality and pseudoscience, but he was so, well, kind about it.

Perhaps it was this very gentleness, warmth and humanity that made him so much more menacing than his ideological peers, then and now. He did not attack so much as elevate. He spent only as much time as was necessary dismantling those things that posed a significant threat to rational living, instead focusing most of our attention on the wonders science had revealed.

So it was with my own deconversion process. I had a mentor in the final years of my faith—a name with which everyone reading this is familiar—who never took my spiritual tumult as an opportunity to hack at the foundations of my religion, but who also didn’t turn his back when I came to him with my quandaries. He never attacked or belittled my faith. He merely redirected my gaze to the wonders that can be found within a scientific framework and let everything else take care of it itself. He simply showed me something unspeakably beautiful and inarguably true and then stepped back, trusting in a process he knew would ignite my brain and consume my body. Whether he knew it or not, he was walking in Carl Sagan’s footsteps.

Written By: by Brandon Fibbs
continue to source article at faithstreet.com
 
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Let me again emphasis that I am in no way denigrating Richard Dawkins, other then in comparison in styles to Carl Sagan, and as admirably described in the previous article.

images

;)
 
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Most human beings (I actually think all human beings except the brain-crippled) acquire their morality and the framing of their worldview through stories - the better stories acquire sophistication (often via refinement) and durability, eventually coming to be called "myths" or "tales".

Many of these stories are in their essentials older than the languages they are being told in, older than the designs of the tools and foodstuffs in the hands of the people telling them - possibly older than their skin color or hair texture.

Adults of wisdom know these stories to be, simultaneously, completely fictional and the deepest truths. Taking either aspect to the exclusion of the other falls short of adulthood, or wisdom.

Carl Sagan told stories, created narratives. That is more profound than developing arguments, as others such as Dawkins (admirably, in their own right) do - it joins the understanding of physical reality to the narrative core of wisdom.
 
...so they don't get soaked by the rain,...Your argument depends on their fragility, their inability to endure without constant repair in any earthly environment whatsoever. That argument is in conflict with my woodpile.
Umm...and if they do get soaked in the rain? You think ideal prebiotic environment was a desert maybe? And how about we get away from your neat example of dry wood - a particularly tightly structured entity highly protective of it's constituents.
Q-reeus said: "At any rate such hardy components were first synthesized to form polymer chains bit-by-bit in a living cell."
Irrelevant.
Nonsense. Peptide chains of any significant length, which is the barest beginnings of what is needed, have never been shown to form from precursor amino acids without human intervention. And for the reasons explained in that vid. End to end linkage gets out competed by side reactions that poison any hoped for growth towards RNA world etc.
Irrelevant. Abiogenesis began before there were any modern cells, or "functioning" anything.
A statement of faith in the standard position, nothing more.
Correct. They merely dismiss your impossibility argument - completely: it's gone.
Now that we have reassured ourselves that abiogenesis was easily possible, we can return to the problem of how it happened.
LOL. You may have reassured yourself with such bald assertions, but don't presume to speak for me.
 
That's an argument from ignorance. "I cannot comprehend how life came to be, so God must have had a hand in it." It is a logical fallacy which was once used for almost every physical phenomena. Nowadays it is restricted to very few issues (fortunately) like creationism.
Do you always make it a habit to badly caricaturize an opponent's position before launching in with a straw-man attack?
 
Do you always make it a habit to badly caricaturize an opponent's position before launching in with a straw-man attack?

My post copied from Brain in a vat but applicable here

QUOTE
"You believe the world operates purely naturally, I find it interesting that you haven't proved it. Can you?"

My reply

The main reason I consider the world HAS to operate 'naturally' <<< (here I would say "by fixed unbreakable laws of physics") is that universe would be impossible if Magic / God / Miracles (MGMs) operated.

Problem is ALL versions of MGMs are on a equal footing.

One MGM has just as much validity as another. Where as there is only 1 system of unbreakable Laws of Physics.

Do we know them all? No.

Do we understand all of the ones we do know. Most of them.

Some of those we don't understand can be seen as works in progress.

To illustrate a world where MGMs operated.

Remember here there are NO RULES

God 1 *Today I will make earth gravity twice as strong*.

We are dragging ourselves around when
God 2 looks down.

God 2 *Heaven's above. Today I will make earth gravity a quarter of what it is now*.

Fill out the rest for yourselves. I will continue the theme if 2,000 of you ask nicely. :)
 
QUOTE
"You believe the world operates purely naturally, I find it interesting that you haven't proved it. Can you?"

My reply

The main reason I consider the world HAS to operate 'naturally' <<< (here I would say "by fixed unbreakable laws of physics") is that universe would be impossible if Magic / God / Miracles (MGMs) operated...
Stop right there. The rest rests on the premise that ANY supernatural intervention would make the world/universe 'impossible'. Based on what assumptions? Other than a silly scenario where whimsical deities compete with each other, Monty Python style. Don't answer if:
The music is real loud.
Had one too many.
Do I count as 2000 asking nicely?:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)..................................:)
 
Do you always make it a habit to badly caricaturize an opponent's position before launching in with a straw-man attack?
It's an accurate assessment. You and the rest of the world are ignorant of the exact process that led to life. The scientific reaction is to gather more information, formulate theories, and test them. Yours is to throw your hands in the air and claim a magic man did it.
 
It's an accurate assessment. You and the rest of the world are ignorant of the exact process that led to life. The scientific reaction is to gather more information, formulate theories, and test them. Yours is to throw your hands in the air and claim a magic man did it.
You may actually believe that is a valid judgement. Futile to keep contending with such as you since it inevitably bogs down to one assertion against another, on and on.
 
Then assert some evidence of your theory. Disproving other theories isn't enough in this instance, since there are more than just two.
 
Stop right there. The rest rests on the premise that ANY supernatural intervention would make the world/universe 'impossible'. Based on what assumptions? Other than a silly scenario where whimsical deities compete with each other, Monty Python style. Don't answer if:
The music is real loud.
Had one too many.
Do I count as 2000 asking nicely?:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)..................................:)


No not as 2,000. Yes you did ask nicely.

Never asserted any supernatural intervention would make universe impossible.

I do contend the laws of physics are fixed and unbreakable.

Know them all. No. (see my previous for the rest).

Remember ALL deities are equal. The good, the bad, the ugly, the down right evil and yes the whimsical.

Super hero writers recognise the problems with giving their hero unlimited power (hero always wins, who can stop hero if goes bad blah blah blah) so they build in a weakness.

Never read a story where all the deities are all equal, all omnipotent.

But the reality of "deitie belief" is n
ot where whimsical deities compete with each other. It's where the believers compete with each other.

My invisible God is better than your invisible God.

Mean time the un-seeing, un-caring, un-knowing universe continues following the unbreakable Laws of Physics.


Lord help us if gods did exist and got into a tangle.
 
Never asserted any supernatural intervention would make universe impossible.

I do contend the laws of physics are fixed and unbreakable...

Mean time the un-seeing, un-caring, un-knowing universe continues following the unbreakable Laws of Physics....
To cut this a bit short (hopefully). As you surely observed, one member refused to wear a label, always weaseling out with attack as best form of defense strategy.
Your style is playful and interesting to a point, but can get irritating. Mind revealing your 'label': atheist, or agnostic (pretty sure theist is off the menu)?
 
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