More Scientific Nonsense

Roman said:
See my edit- it's not an either/or, all/or nothing proposition.

It's like claiming a behavior is ONLY nurture or ONLY nature. Clearly behaviors involve both components. Unless you're a dualist. In which case, I'm not really interested in discussing this any further.
Click to expand...

No its not which is why not all members of a group are endogamous; that's not to say some aren't. The Parsis in India for example, have almost disappeared, a small group to begin with, and highly highly endogamous. All rebels instantly excommunicated. Today, they would be considered racists. Strangely, although Persian in origin and strongly identity conscious, they consider themselves Indians. India being what it is, they were permitted their exclusive behaviour, now after 1000 years, they have (slowly) abandoned it and marry non-Parsis.

The key of course, is the perception of acceptance. I don't know any Parsi who, inspite of 1000 years of exclusion from Indians within India, consider themselves anything but Indian.

IMO, their tribalism and exclusiveness was a reflection of their persecution; their assimilation is a reflection of their identification with the tribe (which has nothing to do with any of their tribal aspects)

I mean, look at Farrokh Dhondy (better known as Freddie Mercury); who woulda thunk he is pure Iranian?
 
Yet also look at the success of largely exclusive groups, like Jews. They retain their wealth from generation to generation, often occupy influential positions, and have kept alive really, really old culture. They share a lot of genes.

....
You know, it's not like anything in the West faces a fitness problem from lack of resources, anyway. But as a cultural and racial unit, Jews have done really well in the group think thing.
 
Roman said:
Yet also look at the success of largely exclusive groups, like Jews. They retain their wealth from generation to generation, often occupy influential positions, and have kept alive really, really old culture. They share a lot of genes.

....
You know, it's not like anything in the West faces a fitness problem from lack of resources, anyway. But as a cultural and racial unit, Jews have done really well in the group think thing.
Click to expand...

Evolutionarily speaking, who cares?

It was their shared persecution that made them homogeneous, ironically, they have, themselves erased it in one generation.

If you think there will be "pure" Jews after another 200 years, like there have been in the last 2000, you're not paying attention.
 
S.A.M. said:
Evolutionary speaking, who cares?
Click to expand...

Because protection of the group has ensured that they survived like 10 different empires all trying to crush them?

Alternatively, they could have just put down there spears and said "let's fuck."


Another question- why don't more wars go that way? If we're not so hard wired for group think, why don't more of us just stop fighting and assimilate? Maybe because there's an enormous fitness disadvantage if you lack the ability to cooperate with a group to compete against another group?
 
Roman said:
Because protection of the group has ensured that they survived like 10 different empires all trying to crush them?

Alternatively, they could have just put down there spears and said "let's fuck."


Another question- why don't more wars go that way? If we're not so hard wired for group think, why don't more of us just stop fighting and assimilate? Maybe because there's an enormous fitness disadvantage if you lack the ability to cooperate with a group to compete against another group?
Click to expand...

Mostly because we don't fight for need, we fight for greed.

Its like the M&Ms. They all taste the same, but if you color them differently, it makes you eat more.

The triumph of intellect over instinct.:p
 
S.A.M. said:
Mostly because we don't fight for need, we fight for greed.

Its like the M&Ms. They all taste the same, but if you color them differently, it makes you eat more.

The triumph of intellect over instinct.:p
Click to expand...

You actually look at food before you shovel it your mouth? Way to reduce your energy consumption per unit time!


So are you saying that our tendency towards group think is a mistake? A problem created by big brains? I can see the issue with fighting- animals rarely fight unless necessary. Too costly, otherwise.
 
Roman said:
You actually look at food before you shovel it your mouth? Way to reduce your energy consumption per unit time!

So are you saying that our tendency towards group think is a mistake? A problem created by big brains? I can see the issue with fighting- animals rarely fight unless necessary. Too costly, otherwise.
Click to expand...

I think we overestimate our ability to adapt our environment to ourselves. We tend to forget we live in a closed system and what we affect ultimately affects us.
 
superluminal said:
Don't know if this has been mentioned, but we're programmed by our DNA to be racist. It takes a conscious effort to overcome our fundamental distrust of those that "aren't us". It serves a number of purposes that were very beneficial to our evolutionary ancestors.

For better or worse, small groups of humans have always competed for territory, mates, and other resources. Those who clearly are more related to you probably share more of your genetic heritage than those that are more different. Your genes make "survival machines" (that's you and me) that maximize their own success and that of closely related genes.

So, those with more pronounced differences are even less likely to gain our sympathy. And rightly so, from a genes point of view.

So, where does this leave our modern sensibilities regarding our fellow humans?
Click to expand...

This is true. And it also explains for instance hooligans, one group against another. Groups tend to be anti 'other-groups', and it's probably evolutionary.
 
Enmos said:
I don't know :shrug:
But eventually all behavior is directly or indirectly related to genes and thus evolutionary.
Click to expand...

Only if you ignore the fact that a significant proportion of variance is attributable to environmental factors.
 
S.A.M. said:
Only if you ignore the fact that a significant proportion of variance is attributable to environmental factors.
Click to expand...

The genetic makeup of a creature allows for these environmental factors to influence it's behavior no ? That's what I mean by 'eventually'.
 
Enmos said:
The genetic makeup of a creature allows for these environmental factors to influence it's behavior no ? That's what I mean by 'eventually'.
Click to expand...

Does it? If you separate Finnish twins, one grows up in China with Chinese parents and the other in Africa with African parents, what do you predict their behaviour will be like?
 
Hmm so if they are similar its genetics, if they are different, its genetics.

IOW, a non falsifiable argument and hence, non scientific.
 
S.A.M. said:
Hmm so if they are similar its genetics, if they are different, its genetics.

IOW, a non falsifiable argument and hence, non scientific.
Click to expand...

:confused: Do you know anything about genetics ?

The body is build up through gene expression, they hold the building plan of the body. Why are some people better at something than others while receiving exactly the same training ? Genetics..
 
Enmos said:
:confused: Do you know anything about genetics ?

The body is build up through gene expression, they hold the building plan of the body. Why are some people better at something than others while receiving exactly the same training ? Genetics..
Click to expand...

I know what is science. Your argument is not falsifiable, hence it is not science.

Unless you can provide a testable hypothesis to verify your claim?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top