Mathematical thinking

Status
Not open for further replies.
DaveC426913 said:
I'm not trying to bust your balls here; I'm genuinely responding to the message I am receiving from you.
Click to expand...
Ok then, my genuine response to yours, is that in my first post I asked a couple of questions that weren't about my experience, but about anyone else here's experience.
Have you studied it out of curiosity and discovered that an idea you had is a real mathematical thing, and do you think mathematics is hard to learn?
 
I did not have the experiences you mention.

I find some math easy and intuitive, but I peaked in high school, before getting comfortable with calculus, going into photography instead of math.
 
Ok. Anthropologist's query #2

Have you gambled either in friendly games or a casino? Can you offer any gambler's insights, on say the statistical differences between card games and horse or dog racing?
 
I've gambled. I don't really get poker and betting and bluffing. I'm a euchre guy.

I played at the $50 Blackjack table in Vegas. I placed one bet for $50, won the hand and walked away. The logic is that my best odds are in the first hand and, every hand after, my odds that I will lose my winnings increase. So I walked away while I was still up.
 
Alrighty. Do you think there might be a deeper connection between the structure in structured sound, that we call music, and the structure of our consciousness? I mean, it's some combination of neural activity, maybe like singers in a neural choir say. A choir of neurons. Does that sound on the wall or off it?

Here's a wry introduction to higher mathematics:

Combinatorics 301

If the question is, how many angels fit on the head of a pin,
then what is the question how many ways are there to arrange them so Handel's Messiah
spontaneously emerges?
 
exchemist said:
People like Bach enjoyed exploring what could be done within the constraints of counterpoint, in which the same or a closely related musical line has to fit with others, with an offset in time and pitch - a sort of mathematical puzzle. I used to enjoy listening to the Art of Fugue when I was at uni - strangely soothing to hear someone else working it all out so cleverly.
Click to expand...
I'll confess I have also explored Bach. The man was prodigious.

I can sit down and play through some of the fugues in Der Kunst. I still have this unavoidable feeling of reciting something, it's kind of weird and awesome at the same time. He seems to be able to go places nobody else thought of.

I think his music and thinking in a certain, let's say contemplative way, underline the still sketchy theory I'm developing, that our brains are musical. It explains why humans are so into it, it's a need we have to see or hear something reassuring about ourselves, possibly. Bach is up there on that reassurance scale, I would say.

Further evidence, not much of a representative sample, is Carlos Santana admitting he thinks of the Virgin Mary when he's playing; my guess is he finds it reassuring. Music and religion, don't get me started, and I'm a religious scholar of sorts but not a church-going Christian. It follows from being interested in anthropology in my armchair fashion, you can't avoid culture eh?
 
Ok, so this gig includes some questions about what others here might know or even have an interest in.

Our thinking, let's say, is like a set of neural cells communicating such that they cooperate; they "wake each other and start singing a song", and, this set, a subset of the total neural space, could be randomly spatially distributed. So the structure is some small network of neurons and support cells; we assume there are plenty of feedback mechanisms and that this small network reaches a "resonant state" where the cooperation is maximal--they're all singing the same tune.

So thought, conscious activity, is a whole posse, an army like we've never seen before, of these small networks which obviously also cooperate with each other. A pattern of activity emerges, where initially there is chaos. This is also very common in electronics. Any electronic device has some chaotic response after switch-on before moving smoothly to the on state, or to it's working analog state.

So if that's a sketch of some kind of model--a whole lot of neural tunes that make up a composition, we call it thinking but there are several levels of consciousness--then I have to consider how to take the thing apart and put it back together. This isn't about the models or the devices that are used to model neurons directly, not about deep learning.

This is just an idea. If I can make it look like a known kind of mathematical object that's a good start.
 
Alright then. Let's try looking at the idiot-savant.

Suppose someone on the spectrum can hear this activity; there is a feedback in the auditory centres and this case claims an ability to hear his brain thinking. Also this person can compose quite amazing music on a modern keyboard, knows how to use all its features and is practically a sound engineer. So they are polymath but they haven't really used their brains on much else but music.

Questions about the quality of these inner sounds inform us that it isn't unpleasant, it's the opposite, and with a bit of concentration becomes clearer and more elaborate, like being able to tell different instruments apart. It seems to be something that aids their mathematical abilities and lets them tune in to the way they compose but they can't explain this in a satisfactory way. But of course they don't need to. What they say they can hear aren't words, but they are thoughts, they converge like thoughts do, there is like a point and counterpoint in it, a theme or two. Maybe JS Bach had a brain like that, who could say?

So is this a conjectural type of scenario I'm presenting here. Could it be a real thing? Does anyone else here know about any such case, or are they aware of it because it happens to them?
 
Kid Anymore said:
Ok. Understood

Uh, over and out?
Click to expand...
Here, 'Delete' generally means one has double posted, or one has posted and changed their mind. ;)

Perplexingly, SciFo does not have an option for deleting one's own posts, so a posted message cannot be removed. It stays there until/unless a moderator sees the flag and deletes it. My preferred word is [DUPE].

Exchemist is Good People. He's been posting in this thread constructively so it is a good assumption he will continue to do so, unless he confirms otherwise.
 
Last edited:
Well ok then. Thanks

I still have this feeling though, that I've wasted these moments posting this. This thread is effectively free of any curiosity. Nobody appears to be interested. No problemo. I can pick up my guitar and play. This activity I think promises an experience that might be more fulfilling than the one I've managed here so far.

Look, it's easy for me. I want to learn so I ask other people about this. Learning mathematics is perceived as the subject that people generally find difficult, I did too, but now I don't. I wanted to explore this. What happened? Why do I look back and laugh at the standard teaching approach, which everyone admits is good enough but never so that children actually learn what the subject is. What is it for? Why learn about quadratics, what is the point. ??

Being told the point is that you need to know it and you have to pass exams, just never cut it for me, and I think I can say a few things about why. Why isn't mathematics taught as an enjoyable thing to learn? Why is the default reaction, "Oh god, not that stuff". Is there a way out? Can someone cut a shorter path through the jungle?

Or just forget about it. Jut learn it and try not to feel too weird that you know some math, but you'll probably never find out why you bothered.
 
Kid Anymore said:
Well ok then. Thanks

I still have this feeling though, that I've wasted these moments posting this. This thread is effectively free of any curiosity. Nobody appears to be interested. No problemo. I can pick up my guitar and play. This activity I think promises an experience that might be more fulfilling than the one I've managed here so far.

Look, it's easy for me. I want to learn so I ask other people about this. Learning mathematics is perceived as the subject that people generally find difficult, I did too, but now I don't. I wanted to explore this. What happened? Why do I look back and laugh at the standard teaching approach, which everyone admits is good enough but never so that children actually learn what the subject is. What is it for? Why learn about quadratics, what is the point. ??

Being told the point is that you need to know it and you have to pass exams, just never cut it for me, and I think I can say a few things about why. Why isn't mathematics taught as an enjoyable thing to learn? Why is the default reaction, "Oh god, not that stuff". Is there a way out? Can someone cut a shorter path through the jungle?

Or just forget about it. Jut learn it and try not to feel too weird that you know some math, but you'll probably never find out why you bothered.
Click to expand...
If you want a response, you need to express some coherent ideas with which people can engage. At the moment what you post seems to be a rather random stream of consciousness, without ideas that are sufficiently developed for a reader to get hold of.

It is up to you to interest the readers here. Nobody owes you a hearing. If we find nothing worth responding to, you need to try harder to communicate more effectively.
 
exchemist said:
If you want a response, you need to express some coherent ideas with which people can engage. At the moment what you post seems to be a rather random stream of consciousness, without ideas that are sufficiently developed for a reader to get hold of.

It is up to you to interest the readers here. Nobody owes you a hearing. If we find nothing worth responding to, you need to try harder to communicate more effectively.
Click to expand...
Ok I left. But now I'm back for one last post. Yes it's the last post. I hope you remembered to press your uniforms.

"If I want a response". Right there is what seems to be at least part of the problem with this site. Way too much expectation of being told explicit stuff. I presume that this means what I have posted contains insufficiently concrete ideas.

Well there's the thing. It doesn't. There are ideas I've tried to introduce like I'm not some educated snob.
Surprise, surprise. It doesn't work. I'm not that eager to try again. Sorry it isn't happening, and I'm sure that will be sad news to you all.
You all are whoever you all think you are. I shudder at the thought of change in that regard, so I have no choice.
I must step away. Leave the table. Gather my meagre winnings and leave the casino.

It has sorta been fun though. I made you laugh at least once, right? I say some pretty ridiculous stuff sometimes, I know.

Right there for you in my last statement is the very last ridiculous thing I can offer. I have no more.
 
Kid Anymore said:
Ok I left. But now I'm back for one last post. Yes it's the last post. I hope you remembered to press your uniforms.

"If I want a response". Right there is what seems to be at least part of the problem with this site. Way too much expectation of being told explicit stuff. I presume that this means what I have posted contains insufficiently concrete ideas.

Well there's the thing. It doesn't. There are ideas I've tried to introduce like I'm not some educated snob.
Surprise, surprise. It doesn't work. I'm not that eager to try again. Sorry it isn't happening, and I'm sure that will be sad news to you all.
You all are whoever you all think you are. I shudder at the thought of change in that regard, so I have no choice.
I must step away. Leave the table. Gather my meagre winnings and leave the casino.

It has sorta been fun though. I made you laugh at least once, right? I say some pretty ridiculous stuff sometimes, I know.

Right there for you in my last statement is the very last ridiculous thing I can offer. I have no more.
Click to expand...
I was merely trying to be helpful, assuming, perhaps wrongly, that you were expecting some engagement with your ideas from other readers on the forum. That, after all, is what a forum is for.

If you think expressing yourself clearly is the mark of an “educated snob”, then you are dooming yourself to perpetual resentment and intellectual darkness. You are also a fool.

That’s your choice, but then don’t come to discussion forums.
 
exchemist said:
If you think expressing yourself clearly is the mark of an “educated snob”, then you are dooming yourself to perpetual resentment and intellectual darkness. You are also a fool.
Click to expand...
Well that coming from an opinionated idiot is quite charming in it's own way.

If you think the attitude you have is useful, good for you. I wouldn't therefore pursue anything beyond an opinion from you and would be thankful that I already know that's the good path.
 
Kid Anymore said:
Well that coming from an opinionated idiot is quite charming in it's own way.

If you think the attitude you have is useful, good for you. I wouldn't therefore pursue anything beyond an opinion from you and would be thankful that I already know that's the good path.
Click to expand...
You still here? :biggrin:
 
Kid Anymore said:
Well that coming from an opinionated idiot is quite charming in it's own way.

If you think the attitude you have is useful, good for you. I wouldn't therefore pursue anything beyond an opinion from you and would be thankful that I already know that's the good path.
Click to expand...
I would dial it down a notch, honest sincere posters asking questions will receive answers if we can give them.

Just ask a question, a focused question on something you are really interested in and the thread will be fruitful possibly.

You have meandered in this thread and it is hard to know what you want to get out of it.
 
Last edited:
So far we have:

"over and out"

"Ok I left. But now I'm back for one last post. Yes it's the last post. "

"Well that coming from an opinionated idiot is quite charming in it's own way."

I am starting to think that perhaps he does not mean what he says.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top