"Man's Mind: His Basic Tool of Survival

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But I have a question related on what Chagur said earlier in this thread: is to think an act of choice or is not to think an act of choice? Interesting.
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Just to answer that question, it all depends on what ur choosing or not choosing to think about, for example when im lonely or on my own far from family i choose to think of them and i choose not to think of being alone.

This doesn't answer the question is it possible to "not think" while your conscious, i think it is because when you meditate or just relax sometimes you clear your mind.
I have trouble with this evolution theory that we developed consciousness as a tool for survival , which is why are we the only ones with the evolutionary skills to do this.
By records we (humans) have only been on this earth a fraction of its life time other animals have been here millions of years before us and haven't developed this skill.
This leads us to the next question why are we the only ones?
Its not like we have the biggest brains, we dont even have the best brain to body size ratio so why do we have consciousness?
Mabey u guys can shed some light on that little problem for me :)
 
Perhaps, i can accept the fact that the natural world around us evolved to it persent state but it seems as tho we differ to the rest of life on this planet where as we have a consiousness.
Surly this in itself casts doubt on the whole evolution theory, take in mind im not a religous person but if i am to belive that we evolved on this planet from the same genetic slim that first crawled out of the sea then why do we get a consiousness and no other animal?
Like i said before we are a very young speices in regard to this planet, mutation well its not impossible volcano's send radioactive magma to the surface which could mutate living cells, but thats a 'stab in the dark theory' for all we know we could be alien implantations, mutations or god's great creations who can say?
 
Originally posted by Counterbalance
Hello All,

...

“But to think is an act of choice.

...
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Isn't an act of choice an act of thinking?

An act of choice implies a decision between multiple paths or options. Doesn't this decision imply thinking, or is it possible to "choose" without thinking?

It seems to me that it is a somewhat circular arguement, but I have been known to be incredibly wrong before.:D
 
Thanks for dropping in, Benji.

We humans have a consciousness --after a fashion ;) -- which many of us have trouble defining. We don't know with certainty what all other earth-bound creatures have in the way of consciousness. Many animals seem intelligent, (and how do we define intelligence?) aware or tuned in at our, or similar, "levels" of consciousness, and often seem even more attuned than man to the world they live in. Over all, their instincts get the job done for them. They are animals and live as such. But humans, for unclear reasons, have aspired to a more...*ahem*... civilized existence.

In the animal world, it plainly comes down to the "survival of the fittest." And so it has for man, too. In more ways than one. Only man seems to have developed or encountered a need to NOT live like animals; to not rely as heavily on instinct. My semi-educated guess is that by utilizing certain parts of our (early) brain, we aided our species' survival. One of these "parts" further developed into what we think of today as human consciousness.

We all (all creatures) may have come into Life with the seed of a consciousness, but not all may have needed to explore it's potential--as man did. Early (very early) man may have been a fluke of nature, too. A weak species that hung around in trees watching and observing, thinking without actually trying. Stumbling upon the ability to reason and exploring the possibilities of such a tool without realizing what "we" were doing. Likely that we only did whatever kept us alive. --and living--staying alive--was the impetus that kept us doing whatever the hec we were doing.


We have more evidence supporting the evolution theory than we have evidence supporting alien implantation, or for having been spawned from a biblical pair like Adam and Eve. So for me, some form of evolution makes sense and seems likely. WHY we have developed a "consciousness" is a great question.

Others likely know of better and more specific theories to offer. For now, I also keep asking questions. :)

Thx,

Counterbalance
 
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Re: Re: "Man's Mind: His Basic Tool of Survival

Originally posted by SeekerOfTruth


Isn't an act of choice an act of thinking?

An act of choice implies a decision between multiple paths or options. Doesn't this decision imply thinking, or is it possible to "choose" without thinking?

It seems to me that it is a somewhat circular arguement, but I have been known to be incredibly wrong before.:D
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~~~

I think choosing is an act of thought. Even if the options are trimmed down to something as simple as chocolate or vanilla. We think of what we prefer, and we choose. Might be so practiced at it, that we only think: "Chocolate! Yes!!" But a thought process, even a minimal one, took place. We "saw" the choice before us and responded with an answer based on what we like. What we "like" is stored in our memory and some brief retrieval/comparison took place. --in the simplest of scenarios. Choosing the last carton of chocolate because you know you're kid brother wants it more than you, is another thought process altogether... :)

To not make a choice? Is to choose to NOT make a choice. "I'll defer that choice." "I refuse to deal with that choice." "I'll think about that choice later."

Or so it is according to what I've learned so far...

Thx, Seeker...

Counterbalance
 
Counterbalance ...

It is not that being "Supreme Dictator of the World" takes up all that much time (actually, most of the time I just observe the madness ;) ) but rather the difficulty of the question you posed on October 20th:

'Chagur: How would you define “thinking?” “Analyzing?”'

After much effort, (drum roll) and at the cost of many neurons, (another drum roll) I have come to the conclusion: (yet another drum roll) Analysis requires thought ... Thought cannot be analyzed (drum roll plus trumpets) !!!
 
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Re: Counterbalance ...

Originally posted by Chagur
... Analysis requires thought ... Thought cannot be analyzed (drum roll plus trumpets) !!!
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Chagur,

You should have had a cymbol crash at the end :D

I agree, the concepts of thought, choice, and analysis are too intertwined to be separated and then used to define one with the other. That was what I was getting at with my earlier posts. They aren't much help at understanding what "thought" is and how it arose in our evolutionary development.

Is thought the natural consequence of evolution?

If so, did the dinosaurs think?

If they did, why didn't they develop a more advanced civilization? They were certainly here a lot longer than we have been to date.

If not, why did they not develop thought?

Just some of the questions this thread has brought to my limited "thought" process...:p
 
I can see from the question this raises that our knoledge of the natural history of this planet is very limited.
If your lucky enough to live in the UK there's a documentry on the orignins of man on ch4 on monday evening, i shall try to watch it and see if it offers any solutions to these problems regarding evolution.
I think the program start's at 8pm i might be wrong always better the check the tv listing's.
 
Dang! Chagur was IN the house and I missed it!

Chagur, you have my apologies for posting such a difficult question on the 20th. Nonetheless, :) , I now request, respectfully, that you "brace yerself" and have a go at another one. --If you would be so kind and can spare the neurons, of course!

*ahem*

Chagur... Why cannot thought be analyzed?

Take your time. Enjoy the holidays. Muse it over while you visit with friends, neighbors or family. We'll leave the light on for when you return. :)

~~~

mucho thanks,

Counterbalance
 
I agree, the concepts of thought, choice, and analysis are too intertwined to be separated and then used to define one with the other. That was what I was getting at with my earlier posts. They aren't much help at understanding what "thought" is and how it arose in our evolutionary development.
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~~~

Yep. And that's what we're about here. Or what we're trying to get to. :) These concepts are all intricately entwined. Anyone who wishes to untangle them is free to have to have a go at it.

Good questions, too, Seeker. Got any guesses or suppositions?

~~~

thx,

Counterbalance
 
i shall try to watch it and see if it offers any solutions to these problems regarding evolution.
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~~~

Benji, what's the word? Have the documentaries provided us with any interesting and/or credible theories of late? I do believe your report is overdue. :)

(just kidding!)

~~~

Counterbalance
 
I don't know why i move my hand to 'click' this topic.
But one thing that i understand, that i have energy to move my hands. If we only thinking, we cannot do something, like clicking this topic.
I may influenced by sisgroup's idea.....energy which has made my hand moved the crusors cannot be found when living creature was born on the earth......also energy whom i use to think this reply....
too bad, i cannot describe those energy........
 
Originally posted by Benji
Perhaps, i can accept the fact that the natural world around us evolved to it persent state but it seems as tho we differ to the rest of life on this planet where as we have a consiousness.
Surly this in itself casts doubt on the whole evolution theory, take in mind im not a religous person but if i am to belive that we evolved on this planet from the same genetic slim that first crawled out of the sea then why do we get a consiousness and no other animal?
Click to expand...

The Universe is moving from Simplicity to Complexity over time. Complexity is non-linear and exponential. Humans are the result of increased complexity of the DNA. Who knows, what will form next?

May be DNA is at the end of its complexity like vaccum tubes, or may be it has a few more jumps left. Looking at tubes, no one can predict the ICs. Looking at copper wire to move information through electrons, no one could predict fiber optics to move massive information using photons. So looking at humans, we can not predict what is next.

It is a whole new paradigm...
 
the concepts of thought, choice, and analysis are too intertwined to be separated and then used to define one with the other.
Click to expand...

These concepts are all intricately entwined. Anyone who wishes to untangle them is free to have to have a go at it.
Click to expand...

Analysis and choice both require thought, that is how they are related. To have a choice, you must have a thought. To have analysis, you must have a thought, and therefore already made a choice.

To create a thought you must have a mind. Animals, for the most part, can create basic thoughts, such as eating or playing. Therefore they have a mind and thoughts. Humans have this same capability, except on a higher scale. Why? Evolution?

I think that thoughts can be analyzed(traced back to its source). A thought can be traced back to the mind. From what I know, there is no solid evidence that tells us where the ability to think up a thought came from. Can you go farther?

I am extremely new to this sort of "deeper thinking", and perhaps I am way off base. I apologize if I am. This is all very interesting to me, and I am eager to learn more.

Thanks!
 
Originally posted by Counterbalance


~~~

... Got any guesses or suppositions?

~~~

thx,

Counterbalance
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Here are a few:

Is thought the natural consequence of evolution?

I believe it is a natural outgrowth of evolution. When a creature is faced with multiple choices, instinct may not be enough to select the correct choice, therefor 'thought' has evolved to help select the most 'pro survival' path. Our intelligence and thought have arisen out of that dynamic need to assess multiple potential paths. The level or capability of thought may vary with the number and types of options a creature is faced with. I believe kinamic mentioned that animals do have thought processes and therefor 'think' about their options. In some cases, such as primates, these thought process have become complex enough to allow tool development, which is a far step beyond instinct.

If so, did the dinosaurs think?

I think the level of the dinosaurs thought processes would have been on the level of animals such as elephants and lions. Low level 'thought' that were just a step above instinct. This is because the choices they faced were neither complex or distinct and their 'instincts' could correctly select the appropriate 'survival paths' without complex thought.

If they did, why didn't they develop a more advanced civilization? They were certainly here a lot longer than we have been to date.

If not, why did they not develop thought?

As I mentioned above, I do not believe they were faced with complex decisions that could have been 'helped' by a higher thought process, therefor they did not develop a level of 'thought' that we have. As is mentioned in another thread here at Sciforums, our complex cognitive processes probably arose because of our total lack of survival characteristics that compared with the existing predators we were competing with. The only 'claws', to borrow someone else's phrase, we had was our ability to think and utilize tools. These are what allowed us to survive.
 
Counterbalance ...

You cruel, cruel man!

Back the end of November you asked: "Why cannot thought be analyzed?"

And then had the audacity to add: "Take your time. Enjoy the holidays.
Muse it over while you visit with friends, neighbors or family. We'll leave the
light on for when you return." Knowing full well that being the sort I be,
I would do whatever necessary to find the answer.

Oh the cruelty of it. Surrounded by friends, neighbors and/or family I
could not indulge in the festivities and good cheer of the season while
plagued by the question "Why cannot thought be analyzed?"

Even sleep was disrupted! I would find myself wakening mid-night and
there the question would be; "Why cannot thought be analyzed?" And
I would break out in a sweat! Were I not a male I would have wondered if
I weren't experiencing menopause!

And then came New Year's eve night ... and I found myself trying to desperately
to partake in the merriment ... and failing, going back to the punchbowl time
and time again until I could barely make it upstairs to my daughter's
bathroom and collapse in her tub.

I know not how long I was oblivious before bolting upright! An hour? Maybe
two? And the thought ... the answer ... like a bolt from the purple struck (my
daughter has strange ideas about decorating)!

Schroedinger's Cat!

Relief washed over me, joy flooded me, I KNEW WHY!

Exhausted, I curled up in my daughter's tub and went back to sleep thinking
how beautifully simple the answer was ... how elegant!

Well, it looks like the light will have to stay on a bit longer ...

Come morning, not only did I have one hell of a hangover, I could not remember
the beautiful, the simple, the elegant answer!

Oh you cruel, cruel man!

Hope you had/have a good one ;)
 
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I don't know why i move my hand to 'click' this topic. But one thing that i understand, that i have energy to move my hands. If we only thinking, we cannot do something, like clicking this topic.
I may influenced by sisgroup's idea.....energy which has made my hand moved the crusors cannot be found when living creature was born on the earth......also energy whom i use to think this reply....
too bad, i cannot describe those energy........
Click to expand...

~~~

Hi scully,

Thanks for dropping in.

I'm not sure I understand exactly where you're coming from, but it sounds like you are dismissing your ability to understand your own motivation for wanting to click on this topic. However, didn't something about the thread title catch your attention for some reason? Provoke a thought...a question? Prompt you to investigate a bit further?

Maybe you'd like to elaborate a little more?

thx,

Counterbalance.
 
I am extremely new to this sort of "deeper thinking", and perhaps I am way off base. I apologize if I am. This is all very interesting to me, and I am eager to learn more.
Click to expand...

~~~

kinamic...

No apology necessary. The purpose of this thread was to explore, share and hopefully learn more about what interests a lot of us: our minds. My bet is that we've all done more "deep thinking" than we give ourselves credit for. (how we make use of the ability is another matter)

But look at what we're doing here. We're discussing how we think--and how we think about thinking. In order to do that, we have to think about how we're thinking before and as we type our 'thoughtful' opinions. Kinda weird but fascinating, too! :)

You've reminded us of how animals think differently than humans. Any more insight into these differences would be welcome.

And I agree, btw... analysis and choice both require thought.

~~~

Counterbalance
 
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