Let Freedom Ring Like a Gunshot

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Tiassa, Jan 24, 2023.


It's the [(expletive)] guns.

Poll closed Feb 28, 2023.
  1. Yes

  2. No

  3. Freedom, motherf'er! I got my Second Amendment locked and loaded!

  1. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Same thing happened with drunk driving.

    In the 1970's drunk driving was a huge problem, with death rates over twice what they were today. Governments started implementing fixes. Many drivers complained; it's not drinking and driving that's the problem, they said, it's irresponsible drivers who can't hold their liquor and try to drive. (Needless to say, the drivers espousing this claimed that THEY were OK to drink and drive; they had faster reaction times to begin with.)

    Nevertheless, governments started regulating drinking. They passed laws making bartenders responsible for not serving drunk people. They required listing alcohol contents on cans. They limited the ability of liquor companies to advertise to kids. They put BAC limits in place. They stepped up enforcement of drunk driving checkpoints. They started arresting people who had caused no problems while driving; they were simply over the limit. Note that they did not ban either drinking or driving - but did reduce people's freedom in both cases,

    And it worked. Drunk driving deaths fell by more than half.

    So in this case we will have to take a similar approach. Again, not by banning guns. But by making it more difficult for people to get guns and use them in murders, including mass shootings.
    James R likes this.
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  3. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    I don't disagree.
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    The desperation is grotesque:

    The prospect that a person didn't do anything is, in this context, generally irrelevant to what that another person actually did. The proposition that we ought not explore the relationship between the gun and the shooter's decision to shoot, and that we should be so negligent in our inquiry for the sake of some purported responsible gun owner three towns over, or in another state, is beyond ridiculous. Even over at FOX News, poll respondents seem to think the guns are the problem, with majorities supporting various gun control measures, and more people carrying guns did not achieve fifty percent. But that particular poll was asking about reducing gun violence; maybe for the people who are okay with what happened at Uvalde because it's just the way things go, adding more guns in more people's hands might even seem like a good idea. Maybe they actually want more violence in their communities.

    Meanwhile, we tried alcohol prohibition, and it didn't work. We tried marijuana prohibition, and it didn't work. Outright firearm prohibition isn't coming anytime soon, but we have tried wars—civil, gangland, and police style—and those didn't help reduce violence.

    But as long as you want to compare a gun to a mind-altering substance, remember also that we do have the laws obliging alcohol offenders to rehab, and prohibiting them from future possession and use.

    It's one thing if you're not thinking through your arguments before posting, but this performance is depraved: In most places? Ah, so we should think about something other than the circumstance right in front of us. The reason why, unlike some other place, it doesn't go a certain way in Texas is for the sake of the guns. In most places?

    Most gun owners? We've heard that argument the whole time. Well, remember, compared to what's going on, here, most gun owners aren't very useful toward reducing firearm violence. But since so many people need to die so those gun owners don't have to actually be responsible or useful or anything other than self-satisfied, maybe we ought not―... oh, right, even a majority of gun owners seem to think the guns are the problem. Even most gun owners seem to recognize that bawling about other people, i.e., responsible gun owners, does nothing to address the facts of what is going on in our society.

    And what is it about "gun owners" that makes them so much better than anyone else in the eyes of the law? We make exceptions to our laws for gun owners¹, and pass laws to protect the damn guns².

    There is an old line from a song↑, about how, "'Gee, whiz!' and 'Golly!' don't cut it." And it's true, sometimes being polite doesn't suffice. But even if the complaint is simply that, "'It's the fucking guns' is hardly a 'well said' bit of prose", the death toll is a bit more pressing than, 「Pardon me, but I was wondering, if it wasn't too much trouble, if perhaps you'll forgive me for suggesting that it might be helpful if you would be so kind as to ....」 Besides, sometimes what seems an otherwise reasonable request gets people shot to death. Because, sure, sometimes people lose their tempers about being asked to behave less disruptively, but when mass shooting is the response to being asked to not behave so disruptviely with a gun, yes, the difference is the gun.

    In truth, the only reason a critique about what is or isn't a "'well said' bit of prose" stands out is because, in the face of everything else going on, that is apparently someone's priority.


    ¹ It's one of the reasons certain domestic violence is not charged as a felony, and changing those statutes has long been controversial for the same stupid reasons we always hear.

    ² While public health officials sometimes view firearm violence according to public health metrics, but the Dickey Amendment (1997) prohibited CDC, and has only been clarified (2018) to allow such assessment as long as the information is forbidden from consideration in firearm policy.​
    James R likes this.
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  7. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    It ain't the guns-it's the people.
    Some people kill with automobiles, some with knives, some with clubs, etc...
    Nothing posted here is gonna change anything.
    candy likes this.
  8. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    If we compare the United States of America with other western nations, the levels of gun violence are an obvious outlier.

    You're telling us that the problem is not the guns, but the American people.

    What is is about the American people, then, that makes them so unusually violent with guns? Please tell us.
  9. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    It's complicated.
    Nothing is gained by lumping all of "the American people" together as though we all think and act alike.
    We don't!

    Most gun deaths are suicides.
    Most people will not kill another human being.
    (This was a real problem for the army---in ww2 only 10% of the soldiers were killing the enemy)
    and, of that 10% most will not kill outside of the structure of war

    We are whittling the potential number of killers down here...
    Must gun homicides are committed by people who are not legally allowed to own guns. (and, because of their criminal records couldn't be in the army)

    fewer and fewer
    It ain't guns;
    and it ain't "the American people".

    compare the United States of America with other western nations
    and there is much more that could use changing if the welfare of "the American people" is your goal.
    Look at our health care industry (health care mistakes is/are the 2nd leading cause of deaths in this country)
    Look at our school industry (most graduates do not even know the constitution---and really suck at critical thinking)
    Look at out private prisons industry (per capita, we have the most incarcerated citizens)
    It has been proffered that we should beware of the military industrial complex. (Why do you think that we are participating in the genocide of the eastern Slavic peoples in Ukraine?)
    The above mentioned industries/complexes are equally heinous.

    If you must choose one to be indignant about choose one of the above mentioned problems.
    Seattle likes this.
  10. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    I think you're trying to distract from the gun problem.
    Nevertheless, you're saying that the reason America is an outlier on gun violence not because of the guns.

    You don't seem to have suggested what the reason could be, if not the guns.
    It stands to reason that more guns mean more suicides by gun. More guns mean more murders by gun. More guns mean more accidental deaths by gun.

    But you say the problem is not the guns.
    Intention is one thing. But if you aim to threaten another human being, or just hurt them, and you do it with a gun and are either reckless about the outcome or go too far for some other reason, then you're more likely to kill that person with your gun than with many other things you might threaten or hurt somebody with.
    Are you? How?
    America has had more than 130 mass shootings this year, so far. How many of those shooters used guns they were not legally allowed to own?

    So, not the guns and not the people, now.

    Tell me what your new reason is, to explain the disproportionate number of gun deaths in America, compared to comparable nations (on statistics other than lax gun laws).
    Indeed. But this thread is about guns. You seem to be trying to distract away from that. Why?
  11. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    OK James

    I do not think that we have a "gun problem".

    We in the USA have a lot of problems, but guns are way down on my list of problems here.

    Mostly, it seems that we have a media problem
    They like to focus on guns while ignoring other more serious problems.

    Long ago
    When the peasants grew restive
    The local lord would gather up his bully boys and go and attack the neighboring lord's peasants
    The neighboring lord would then gather up his bully boys and attack the local lord's peasants
    The local lord's peasants would then run to the local lord and beg for his protection
    be willing to give up some of their rights and freedoms for that protection

    The more things change, the more they remain the same.
    (We have the "patriot act".)
    (which, of course, has nothing to do with patriotism)
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

    It is, of course, both. If you took away Adam Lanza's gun and gave him a spoon instead, he MIGHT have been able to kill one other kids - instead of 20.
    Great example. And back in the 1970's driving was dangerous business indeed. So how did we reduce those deaths?

    We required everyone to register their car.
    We required everyone to pass a test and get a license before they could drive.
    We required everyone to carry insurance in case they harmed someone else.
    We passed laws that said you cannot drive into airport lobbies, onto airport runways, into school playgrounds etc.
    We required extensive safety equipment in vehicles to both protect the drivers and people they might hit.
    We required extensive crash testing of those vehicles.
    We passed laws that said you could not drive while drunk or impaired, that you had to obey speed limits, and that basically you have to drive safely - and if you don't your right to drive, and then your car, is taken away.

    And it all worked. Overall vehicle fatalities by miles driven are down by over a factor of 3 since the 1970's.

    The same thing will work with guns.

    The facts disagree with you.

    We have, by far, the highest gun death rate of any first world country. To find gun death rates higher than the US's, you have to go to lawless countries like El Salvador, Venezuela, Guatemala, Colombia etc.

    When you compare the US to comparable countries there is no contest. We have six times the gun death rate of Canada. 60 times the rate of the UK. 14 times the rate of Australia.

    Gun violence is now the #1 killer of kids. More than disease, more than accidents.

    Schools ban the teaching of sex ed but teach kids how to hide from gunmen roaming their schools killing kids. In fact they have regular drills on this. That's how f*cked up this country has gotten.
    We have a too many dead people problem, even if your media sources tell you to ignore those facts.
    James R likes this.
  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

    But some do.

    And if one of those killers is armed with a butter knife they might be able to kill one or two, if they are very good with that knife.
    If that same killer is armed with an automatic weapon they can (and do) kill dozens. Just point and shoot.

    We have far more guns than people in the US. And when that is the case, anyone who is in a bad mood one day can go down to a school and kill a few dozen kids.
  14. foghorn Valued Senior Member

  15. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Life During Wartime
    Trauma the Life Fantastic
    Life in These United States

    Financial Times reporter John Burn-Murdoch suggests↱, "the scale and mundanity of ‘non-mass’ shootings in the US is truly astonishing", and observes:

    … if 4 in a ~24 hour period seems like a lot (it should), there are actually an average of *316* people shot every day.

    The headlines he attaches include:

    • "8-month-old fatally shot as mother and father fight over handgun, Texas officials say"

    • "Neighbor shoots 14-year-old as kids play hide and seek outside, Louisiana cops say"

    • "Volley of gunfire kills 16-year-old sitting in parked car with mom, Texas police say"

    • "McDonald's worker lures manager to door, then shoots and kills her, Georgia cops say"

    Meanwhile, in the mass shooting bracket, actor Ethan Embry↱ notes:

    Twice in Texas this week mothers died covering their one surviving child from the man with a rifle who just murdered her other child in front of her.

    The thing is, it cannot possibly be a rational choice to live this way.


    @EmbryEthan. "Twice in Texas this week mothers died covering their one surviving child from the man with a rifle who just murdered her other child in front of her." Twitter. 8 May 2023. Twitter.com. 9 May 2023. https://bit.ly/3NVclF9

    @jburnmurdoch. "I can obviously understand the focus on mass shootings, but the scale and mundanity of ‘non-mass’ shootings in the US is truly astonishing. And if 4 in a ~24 hour period seems like a lot (it should), there are actually an average of *316* people shot every day. Horrific." Twitter. 9 May 2023. Twitter.com. 9 May 2023. https://bit.ly/3ptz7K8
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Texas Man Murders Woman for Making Her Own Decisions

    Yeah, sounds about right.

    A Texas man, 22, was arrested on Wednesday evening for fatally shooting his 26-year-old girlfriend for traveling to Colorado to get an abortion, the Dallas Morning News reported on Friday. The man, Harold Thompson, shot his partner, Gabriella Gonzalez, in a parking lot in the West Oak Cliff neighborhood of Dallas the day after she returned from traveling for her abortion, police say.

    Per an arrest-warrant affidavit obtained by the Dallas Morning News, the Dallas Police Department reviewed surveillance footage that shows Thompson and Gonzalez walking together and having an argument shortly before the shooting. In the horrifying footage, Thompson assaults and attempts to put Gonzalez in a chokehold, but she pushes him off and they continue to walk together. Then Thompson takes out a gun, shoots Gonzalez in the head, and shoots her several more times after she falls to the ground.

    The arrest-warrant affidavit notes that Thompson is believed to have been the one who impregnated Gonzalez. He disapproved of her abortion, and court records obtained by the newspaper say that he shot her because of this. In addition to his murder charge, Thompson also reportedly faces a charge of assault of a household member, the Dallas Morning News reports.


    Really: Texas? Masculinity? Guns? Take your pick, this is what it was always about.


    Cheung, Kylie. "A 22-Year-Old Texas Man Fatally Shot His Partner for Traveling to Get an Abortion". Jezebel. 12 May 2023. Jezebel.com. 12 May 2023. https://bit.ly/3MmAtQ1
  18. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

    The diverse nature of this country and our citizens might have something to do with it. The various opposing views and cultures represented by us and the manner in which legislation is sometimes handled can be a slippery slope for those who aren't being represented. Then we have the land disputes, housing disagreements, we have disagreements in lifestyles, and disputes over who should and who shouldn't be able to vote and who should be denied gun ownership, then on to the prescription drug pushers and big pharmaceutical companies and anti this and anti that and pro what's ... Oh Constitution, which has its own counter culture with target set on our bill of rights. We have gender disputes sexual identity disputes, we have the displaced and prisoner release of long term prisoners, then on to who's or next targeted impeachment candidate. Beyond this, I don't know why Americans get so worked up.

    Wait, there's also the I'm more dominate than you cultures.

    Is anyone looking out for anything other than a desire for money and control anymore? Yes, we have the right to defend ourselves from the forced controllers of our citizens in this nation.

    Who needs a gun anyway?
  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Diversity might be the problem insofar as it's probably a better boycott to not actually buy Bud Light, instead of buying a bunch of it in order to destroy it with guns. But that only reminds that diversity itself is no reason to start shooting.

    American tendencies toward violence are squarely rooted in our Anglo-American heritage. Yes, there is irony in that.
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Are you claiming that we argue more here and thus come to violence more often? Definitely not. I've been to a dozen countries from Niger to Japan, and the human tendency to argue is clear in all of them - and happens at about a similar rate.

    The big difference here is that we have more guns than people - so for a great many arguments, there is a gun just a reach away. And as soon as you pick up that gun, the outcomes of that argument change radically.
    Hopefully you are not arguing that having a gun is essential for political change. A vote is how we do that here.
    Hundreds of millions of Americans, apparently.

    On another board, a frequent poster talked about how he had to have a gun to protect himself and his family. He was always arguing against the "gun grabbing dems" who were going to take his guns, leaving him defenseless and his family at risk. Then one day something happened. It was probably something minor that escalated. He shot and killed both his daughters, then did the same to his wife. When the police got there he was sitting on the porch with his gun. He then shot and killed himself.

    Now, whatever the minor thing was would probably have escalated without the gun. There would have been shouting. Perhaps someone would have been punched or slapped. Then there would be recriminations, perhaps counseling, perhaps even police involvement. But instead there was a gun that turned an argument into four dead.

    That's the difference between the US and other countries.
  21. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    That's not a lie.There is truth there. There are also more stabbing, honor killings , etc in other countries but we do tend to "win" in that category unfortunately.

    What you describe isn't exactly typical however but it isn't unheard of. Then again, there's a lot that isn't common regarding the US, some legit and some just unfortunate.
  22. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    The Devil's in the Hot Pocket

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    With no deaths, this one was easy to miss:

    A man in Louisville, Kentucky, is facing an assault charge after shooting his roommate “in the ass” during a fight about eating their last Hot Pocket, officials said.

    Clifton Williams got angry Saturday “and began throwing tiles” at his roommate after the roommate ate the last Hot Pocket, the victim told police, according to a court citation.

    The roommate said he tried to fight back before telling Williams he was leaving, the citation said.

    As the roommate was leaving, “Mr. Williams went inside the residence and got a gun,” the victim told investigators. Williams then shot his roommate “in the ass while he was trying to leave,” according to the citation.



    Watson, Michelle. "A man has been arrested after shooting his roommate during a fight about eating the last Hot Pocket, police in Kentucky say". CNN. 25 May, 2023. CNN.com. 8 June 2023. https://bit.ly/3P3sWHz


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