Kim Jong Il dies at 69

It's the term to describe the phenomenon.
It isn't rational behaviour.

It has become something regarded with suspicion I think,
because of its association with Hitler's speeches.
Mostly it is harmless, and as I said, no-one is immune to it.
There may even be some benefit from it.


What's this about.
Are we mocking sick people now?
So are you.

Just that the content of your conditioning and fear is somewhat different than that of North Koreans, or people in Nazi Germany, or whomever.

People in general tend to believe about themselves "I am not indoctrinated, I have not been conditioned, but others are. I am my own person, I am autonomous, others are not."

It would be funny if it wouldn't be so sad.

Pretty much..

North Koreans videotaped after hearing the news of ruler Kim Jong Il’s death appeared to go berserk with grief. There are several explanations for this — by no means all of them involving sincere love for the notoriously self-centered dictator.

First there’s Korean culture. Koreans are noted for being emotionally demonstrative at such times. It’s the thing to do.


Second, the footage of mourners for Kim Jong Il appears to have been shot mainly or entirely in Pyongyang, the capital.

Only certified Kim family loyalists are allowed to live in Pyongyang, where housing and food supply are better than in the provinces. In some of the more benighted provinces people live in slum conditions, lack the facilities for basic hygiene and suffer malnutrition, even starvation.

The South Korean magazine Weekly Chosun reported in October that it had obtained a list of 2,108,032 Pyongyang residents compiled in 2005 by State Security, a secret police organization. Of those capital residents, about 830,000 were members of the ruling Workers’ (communist) Party and most of the rest were their family members or prospective party members, the publication suggested, adding that there are only about 2 million party members in the entire country.


The third factor: Especially if it continues for more than another day or two, much of the grieving display can be put down to a combination of indoctrination and coercion.

Oh Young Nam, a police officer who defected to South Korea, in an interview not long afterward described the scene following the 1994 death of Kim’s father and predecessor as dictator. “The media showed North Koreans weeping in front of the statue of Kim Il Sung,” Oh said.

“That lasted only three days” on people’s own volition, Oh continued. Kim Jong Il wanted it to continue so he “made every organization send a certain number of people to weep each day in front of the Kim Il Sung statue.”

The late Hwang Jang Yop, a former party ideology boss who defected to South Korea in 1997, wrote that after Kim Il Sung’s death “the entire country was swept up in a flood of tears.”

“Most of the mourners were crying because they had been brainwashed by Kim Il Sung’s personality cult,” according to Hwang. “But there was also the fact that anything other than mourning was not allowed.”

“The party conducted surveys to see who displayed the most grief, and made this an important criterion in assessing party members’ loyalty. Patients who remained in hospitals and people who drank and made merry even after hearing news of their leader’s death were all singled out for punishment.”

Hwang at the time supervised an ideological think-tank called the Juche Science Institute. There, he said, “Professor Hong Seung Hoon, the director of economic research, was demoted for remaining dry-eyed and busy repairing his bicycle. This incident eventually took its toll on Dr. Hong’s health and led to his death.”


Fourth, many of the residents of Pyongyang double as actors to impress visiting foreigners. They start as little children performing in events such as the Arirang “mass games” that have been the regime’s main tourist attraction in recent years.


And with the declaration of the period of mourning, the leadership has banned any form of celebration for the time being.

The footage we are seeing is somewhat disturbing though. Because it all seems so contrived and staged managed.
One thing is clear about North Korea, the people are brainwashed and the rest live in absolute fear of secret police and are constantly monitored. That is life in North Korea. They aren't crying because they adore him. They are crying because if they do not, they could be deemed not believing or supporting the regime and the result is a stint in the prison camps or death. That is the reality of North Korea. .

Well... if they're brainwashed, they kind of do adore him. Just not for rational reasons.
I expect it of Gedanken. She has SED syndrome.
Severe Empathy Deficit.
Other people should know better.
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I expect it of Gedanken. She has SED syndrome.
Severe Empathy Deficit.
Other people should know better.


Please. Are you attempting to point out things that you find to be politically incorrect, in order to minimize your own recent activity, Captain, activities that could potentially have real life consequences?
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Geoff beat me to it, but doesn't your repeated usage of "brainwashed" kinda kick your argument square in the nuts?

By the way, did you know that Stalin was adored by his people?
Kruschev started the ball rolling on the end of the willingness of the Soviet people to sacrifice to a good cause by revealing to them the atrocities committed by their hero.
Gorbachev pounded the nail in the USSR's coffin with further acts of honesty.

Just as a curiousity, who killed and opressed more people? Joseph or Il?

To elaborate further on this theme should be wholly unnecessary, I'd hope.
Didn't he buy his plot of radioactive East Korean vertical rice field on a train? Great place fer killin' thems as needs killin'.

Geoff beat me to it, but doesn't your repeated usage of "brainwashed" kinda kick your argument square in the nuts?

I put Geoff on ignore. So I wouldn't know what Geoff beat you to.

As for being brainwashed kicking my argument in the nuts. How so? The NK's are conditioned to praise and react like this because they know if they do not, it will be frowned upon. It happened when Il's father passed away, where reports were made of citizens who did not show enough emotion. There is an element of brainwashing and also fear, especially for those who live outside of the capital and are not deemed the favourites of the leadership.

Those in the capital cry and wail because if they do not, they can lose their freedom or life at worst or be removed from the capital and placed amongst the other classes, losing what little privilege they have.

So wail they do.

That is what I meant by brainwashing. If you look at it, it is very staged managed to show the biggest and frankly worst reaction in my opinion.. (throwing body to the ground as a prime example)..

By the way, did you know that Stalin was adored by his people?
He was adored as much as he was hated. The millions of people he had killed and their families I am sure would not have adored him. Nor did the farmers adore him. He was adored by the rank and file of the party because of his victory in the revolution and war and because he forced an industrial revolution in the former USSR. And any who did not adore him or disagreed with him were purged.

Just as a curiousity, who killed and opressed more people? Joseph or Il?
You answered your own question in your next post. Joseph is estimated to have killed approximately 23 million. Mao is estimated to have killed anywhere from 45 - 80 millions people.

To elaborate further on this theme should be wholly unnecessary, I'd hope.

In Japan they're wondering if Kimmy wasn't assassinated.... Oh my!

Yes, a friend of mine who is teaching in Japan joked about this rumour to me yesterday in an email.. That he was killed by his son in a coup or something the like..
That is what I meant by brainwashing.

What you are describing (people knowingly engaging in pretense to further their rational, immediate self-interest) is the exact opposite of brain-washing.

Brain-washing is when your internal beliefs and values have actually been altered. Not just where you outwardly pretend that they have, for whatever rational reasons. If people are doing this as a theatrical display of false political allegiance, then they cannot be brainwashed. If they're brainwashed, then they're doing it for real.

The scary thing about NK is that major portions of the population have been subject to pretty tight information isolation, constant propaganda, and vigorous discipline for a long time. Literally, generations. While I'd expect that the first generations of Koreans subject to this totalitarianism participated in the way you describe - as an act of political theater, undertaken for rational reasons of self-preservation - it is unclear that generations born decades later have any such critical distance. The whole point of totalitarianism is to literally make subversive ideas unthinkable, not simply to repress their expression.

The way that works in NK has been to make the Dear Leader the central object of all expressions - not just political ones. Like any cult leader, the goal is to be omnipresent in the minds and consciousnesses of the subjects. And so the death of such a leader does cause real grief: not because people literally believe the propaganda, per se, but because their entire system for understanding and relating to the world is built around the Leader's role. For him to die does real violence to the psyches and identities of the subjects, quite indepeapart from how it figures into their material and political circumstances. Totalitarianism infantilizes the subjects - think of the reaction as that of a small infant who is alarmed and frightened by the unexpected absence of his mother, rather than as that of an adult undertaking a rational calculation of political and material interests.