Ignore ignorance? which is a pity, because viewers will miss you decimating an easy target, wild flight of fancy drawings coming.
Jupiter's Orbital Velocity & Equatorial Velocity cancel?
- Thread starter nebel
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Ignore ignorance? which is a pity, because viewers will miss you decimating an easy target, wild flight of fancy drawings coming.
Here is a sketch of the Jupiter/Saturn rotation/revolution situation:
In Figure A is shown :
#1, Planet,
#2 North pole,
#3 Orbital velocity in green, prograde motion,
#4 Points on equator,
#5 Rotational velocity in red, prograde motion,
#6 telescopes measuring transit of points 4, looking in ( on top), -toward, and - out to planet (on bottom),
#7 stationary area of surface facing directly toward sun, and
#8 fasted area facing away from sun,
Planet #1 is rotating about North Pole #2 , giving points #4 rotational direction #5. Planet#1 has orbital motion #3. Telescopes 6 are viewing close and far points #4 near the equator of planet 1.
In area #7, the two motions: the #3, prograde orbit revolution of the planet (green) and its rotation #5 (red) are seen to subtract, ~ cancelled, resulting in a near zero proper motion of the area #7 closest to the sun.
In area # 8 these two motions are seen to add, arrows shown in concert, giving the points #4 there twice the orbital velocity.
This leads points #4 to transit the field of view of inner telescope #6 very slowly (area#7), , but causes a fast passage, only a short time appearance, in the outer instrument #6, aiming at area #8.
Theses situations prevails despite the points #4 having the constant rotational velocity# 5. so:
prolonged/shortened exposure?, really?
A similar situation would have occurred had a supersonic plane remained in the shadow of last years' eclipse, ( did not happen, no bang heard) .
Questions: prolonged, exposure, shortened exposure possible with a far away ~5 AU, ~10 AU point source? does it matter? of course
Total solar energy impinging on the total area does not change, but duration/ intensity might vary from equator to poles, point to point, with effects.
In Figure A is shown :
#1, Planet,
#2 North pole,
#3 Orbital velocity in green, prograde motion,
#4 Points on equator,
#5 Rotational velocity in red, prograde motion,
#6 telescopes measuring transit of points 4, looking in ( on top), -toward, and - out to planet (on bottom),
#7 stationary area of surface facing directly toward sun, and
#8 fasted area facing away from sun,
Planet #1 is rotating about North Pole #2 , giving points #4 rotational direction #5. Planet#1 has orbital motion #3. Telescopes 6 are viewing close and far points #4 near the equator of planet 1.
In area #7, the two motions: the #3, prograde orbit revolution of the planet (green) and its rotation #5 (red) are seen to subtract, ~ cancelled, resulting in a near zero proper motion of the area #7 closest to the sun.
In area # 8 these two motions are seen to add, arrows shown in concert, giving the points #4 there twice the orbital velocity.
This leads points #4 to transit the field of view of inner telescope #6 very slowly (area#7), , but causes a fast passage, only a short time appearance, in the outer instrument #6, aiming at area #8.
Theses situations prevails despite the points #4 having the constant rotational velocity# 5. so:
prolonged/shortened exposure?, really?
A similar situation would have occurred had a supersonic plane remained in the shadow of last years' eclipse, ( did not happen, no bang heard) .
Questions: prolonged, exposure, shortened exposure possible with a far away ~5 AU, ~10 AU point source? does it matter? of course
Total solar energy impinging on the total area does not change, but duration/ intensity might vary from equator to poles, point to point, with effects.
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There is a Time difference in dwell between the great circle line #41-#2-#42 that moves at orbital speed and the areas #7 and #8, and in between.
This duration gradient will be shown in later graphs. And:
Line #51, denotes the expansion of the atmospheres of the planets on the evening, or trailing side due to the Yarkovsky effect.
falsification, refutations please.
This duration gradient will be shown in later graphs. And:
Line #51, denotes the expansion of the atmospheres of the planets on the evening, or trailing side due to the Yarkovsky effect.
falsification, refutations please.
That would amount to a thermal tide, happening to points #4 every 10 hours, and giving the solar radiation more exposed surface more distance from the CG below #2, all happening continously on the evening side #42, , acting to enhance the prograde rotation #5.
As to the longer dwell , the standstill Janus 58 mentioned in post #13, , that is what area# 7 shows in Figure A above. An observer with a non-tracking instrument would see that standstill point on the surface, compare the blur at the poles.
The situation with solar radiation is though, that it is broad, not narrowly confined only inside tube #6. so:
Would the receiver/ emitter of radiation, object #4, although appearing stationary at # 7 really not receive more energy than apoint at the poles #2, that is moving, (discounting angle of incidence effects)? In other words:
In the shadow of a planet, every square foot of that dark circle disk intercepted the same amount of energy, no matter how fast stuff on the planet moved. and
is not the privileged stationary position #7 irrelevant, because sunlight is so diffuse? available everywhere?
PS: If on the other hand, the aerea on the equator of Jupiter/Saturn must be considered a band where the sun stood still at high noon, giving continually local double exposure length, a temporary, but continuously lasting effect of stored solar energy there, --- then we would have identified the first hotter band of the bands affected. The making of a rotation - induced energy gradient
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rambling on:
If for example, the absorbent layer in the upper atmosphere would be extremely sensitive to the direction of incoming photons; In that case, the area at #7 , dwelling at the zero, direct reception angle, would be way more heated at noon, compared to the bands further north and south, and areas
#41 morning and #42 evening, all in the sunlit layer above the one where inner heat predominates.
If for example, the absorbent layer in the upper atmosphere would be extremely sensitive to the direction of incoming photons; In that case, the area at #7 , dwelling at the zero, direct reception angle, would be way more heated at noon, compared to the bands further north and south, and areas
#41 morning and #42 evening, all in the sunlit layer above the one where inner heat predominates.
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ABS analogy (not BS)
and that matching is making for max efficiency of transfer.
that addition will come to the null area (#7 above) and allow for maximum absorption, transfer only there, and carry that more stored energy around, added.
reposting an analogy here:
Why would that motionless condition be so important? The same reason we have ABS systems in vehicles? because only a motionless, lingering contact assures maximum transfer of forces, no squealing desired. Similarly, as touched upon in the above posts, efficiency of energy exchange is attained only in the zero velocity area (#7), stored, and carried around resulting in an added greater energy gradient, than with any other latitude band. Or, -- as JamesR mentioned, between sunup,- noon and sunset. The sunset position (#42) would still the carry the stored effect of more efficient absorption at noon.
The possibility is that this greater gradient is an unusual added energy source for the distinct features on Jupiter and Saturn.
Note to poster with colourful language: Not BS-- but ABS
and that matching is making for max efficiency of transfer.
that addition will come to the null area (#7 above) and allow for maximum absorption, transfer only there, and carry that more stored energy around, added.
Note how just the marker on the circle moves in, and for a brief instant is motionless with respect to the center before moving off again.
(Image of animation not linking) please make it work!
reposting an analogy here:
Why would that motionless condition be so important? The same reason we have ABS systems in vehicles? because only a motionless, lingering contact assures maximum transfer of forces, no squealing desired. Similarly, as touched upon in the above posts, efficiency of energy exchange is attained only in the zero velocity area (#7), stored, and carried around resulting in an added greater energy gradient, than with any other latitude band. Or, -- as JamesR mentioned, between sunup,- noon and sunset. The sunset position (#42) would still the carry the stored effect of more efficient absorption at noon.
The possibility is that this greater gradient is an unusual added energy source for the distinct features on Jupiter and Saturn.
Note to poster with colourful language: Not BS-- but ABS
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"---infrared image shows the heat from the planet's surface, rather than the light reflected by the sun, and allows for greater understanding of the turmoil in the Jovian atmosphere."
Credit: Mike Wong, Franck Marchis, Christopher Gohttps://c-7npsfqifvt34x24jnhx2eqvsdix2edpn.g00.space.com/g00/3_c-7x78x78x78.tqbdf.dpn_/c-7NPSFQIFVT34x24iuuqtx3ax2fx2fjnh.qvsdi.dpnx2fix2f2511x2fbIS1dEpwM4e4ez6adHGkAT6kc31wbX2iA3WaM3lwNEBx78MaBx78PD92Nklwc4KqA3mvZXx78we30vAaBzYaVx78ND6rdHdx2fNUJ6PUZyNkdyNRx3dx3dx3fj21d.nbslx3djnbhf_$/$/$/$/$
The linked mage, if it can be reduced and viewed, shows an interesting thermal picture of the layer having solar absorption, two bands of higher temperature near the equator. Not saying that there is causation, but:
It was assumed that we are talking of equatorial match of velocities. this might not be the case. The best zero velocity zone might be anywhere on the lower latitude bands, north and south, knowing that the orbital velocity is nearly constant but the rotational velocity goes from max at the equator to zero at the poles.
To quote, or misquote Wong et al, "--understanding heat from the planets surface rather light reflected from the sun allows for greater understanding of the turmoil in the Jovian atmosphere. "
Are we talking about the light absorbed, not reflected? Why would the surface (of the clouds ?) show more heat at the equator, furthest from the interior heat source? if not from best absorption area, the zero velocity zone?
Credit: Mike Wong, Franck Marchis, Christopher Gohttps://c-7npsfqifvt34x24jnhx2eqvsdix2edpn.g00.space.com/g00/3_c-7x78x78x78.tqbdf.dpn_/c-7NPSFQIFVT34x24iuuqtx3ax2fx2fjnh.qvsdi.dpnx2fix2f2511x2fbIS1dEpwM4e4ez6adHGkAT6kc31wbX2iA3WaM3lwNEBx78MaBx78PD92Nklwc4KqA3mvZXx78we30vAaBzYaVx78ND6rdHdx2fNUJ6PUZyNkdyNRx3dx3dx3fj21d.nbslx3djnbhf_$/$/$/$/$
The linked mage, if it can be reduced and viewed, shows an interesting thermal picture of the layer having solar absorption, two bands of higher temperature near the equator. Not saying that there is causation, but:
It was assumed that we are talking of equatorial match of velocities. this might not be the case. The best zero velocity zone might be anywhere on the lower latitude bands, north and south, knowing that the orbital velocity is nearly constant but the rotational velocity goes from max at the equator to zero at the poles.
To quote, or misquote Wong et al, "--understanding heat from the planets surface rather light reflected from the sun allows for greater understanding of the turmoil in the Jovian atmosphere. "
Are we talking about the light absorbed, not reflected? Why would the surface (of the clouds ?) show more heat at the equator, furthest from the interior heat source? if not from best absorption area, the zero velocity zone?
Due to the oblateness of Jupiter's gas envelope, there is 14 % less radiant energy from the core reaching the equator than the poles. That creates one energy gradient. The varying angle of incidence of solar radiation gives another one, going from max at equator at noon to sunset, sunup and both poles. On top of that, the Zero Velocity Zone at #7 adds its own max to minimum gradient.
Near equator, 14% less heat from interior source, but way more from sun, as experienced at the top cloud layer. Bands resulting from the latidutindal energy gradients, changes?
Near equator, 14% less heat from interior source, but way more from sun, as experienced at the top cloud layer. Bands resulting from the latidutindal energy gradients, changes?
bold added for emphasis.
For a change, Not looking at insolation, the thermal effects, but the " centrifugal" situation. The inner equator of Jupiter and Saturn being at standstill with respect to the sun, have no orbital velocity, would therefore tend to leave for a lower orbit, are not at all supported against gravity of the sun by "centrifugal" force. On the night side, the same area has twice the orbital velocity, tend to climb higher in orbit, extending via "centrifugal" forces, only partially countered by the sun's gravity. so:
I can see Saturn's rings spun out by these effects, (like my grandmother pulled out wool on her spinning wheel) [spinning a yarn here], or
Jupiter's equator extended beyond just the 10 hour day rotation effect, by means the double orbital outer velocity boost and inner lack of it. or?
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And kind of babbling. There's not much science here.
No. The whole planet Jupiter (or Saturn) is in gravitational free fall all the time towards the Sun. Points on the equator of the planet are held as part of the planet by the planet's gravity, and they share in the rotation of the planet. Their velocities relative to the Sun are not particularly important, as far as I can tell.
This sub- forum is billed as amateur astronomy. expect sub-standard content. "Amateur" from the root word "lover of ".
give lovers a break. please.
You are so right, but then you have this kind of Energy-tidal effect. (Tides happen in specific locations only, having above, below the average levels) so:
While all matter on Jupiter, Saturn is held in by gravity, and on average balanced against the sun's gravity by the forces generated by their orbital velocities, during noon at their equators, all loose particles are in a total, zero velocity (unbalanced by orbital velocity) free fall toward the sun, unsustained by the "centrifugal force" experienced at sunup, sundown and polar regions. That is a tidal effect not generated by gravity alone, but by energy , In this case the absence of it, in the form of zero motion.) a gravitational tide caused by lack of energy
5 hours later, at midnight, the same particles experience twice the outward pull (toward the planet Pluto's orbit) than the sun attracted them with -- at mid day, the other way. A pure energy tide, generated by local doubled orbital velocity!, so:
At noon, 1 Solar/Jupiter G out, down toward the Sun, ~ 5 hour later 2 Solar/Jupiter Gs out, up toward Pluto. S/JG ~1/25 of solar pull at 1AU. At midnight twice the lift.
At noon, 1 Solar /Saturn G out, down toward the Sun, ~ 5 hours later 2 Solar/Saturn Gs out and up toward Pluto. S/SG ~1%of the strength at Earth orbit.
calling it as it is: There must be energy, motion induced local tidal effects, in these prograde rotation, /prograde revolution arrangements.
Effects that should result in special conditions. large low pressure regions? spun out structures?
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exchemist
Valued Senior Member
What bilge.
" free fall toward the sun" by this phrase I did not want to imply that unbound particles would be freed from the global gravity of their parent bodies, as I stated: " All matter on these planets is held in by gravity--"
Free surface particles at noon are not supported against the gravity of the Sun as are those in polar, evening and morning areas, which travel at force balancing orbital velocities.
Did you mean " Bulge"? Solar gravity is 4% and 1% respectively on Jupiter and Saturn orbits, compared to our neighbourhood, making for 8% and 2% bulge causing forces, at midnight observations. doubtful we could detect them.
This site actually has a bilge compartment, the lowest on HMS (Sf). would accept justified assignment there.
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exchemist
Valued Senior Member
A point on the planet's equator that is "stationary with respect to the sun" is merely stationary with respect to a line joining it to the sun. That line is a radius of the orbit, sweeping round the sun at orbital velocity.
underlined for emphasis.
That is true! for any point on the equator that is stationary with respect to the cg of the planet,or it's poles. As it is, Jupiter's and Saturn's equators spin backward at ~ the same speed as the planets advance in their orbits. so,
Any noon point on these planets' equators defines points in space, on the orbit, a radius (you described) that is ~stationary in space. The noon area, smallest shadow ( disregarding tilt) would indicate that there is no orbital velocity, hence full, unopposed solar gravitation, only local, planetary gravity.
Think of a tire rolling on a winter road, it would leave stationary tread marks in the snow.
Zero orbital velocity means zero centrifugal force, at that moment on that particle, maximum solar pull.
The radial line from the noon equator points of Jupiter and Saturn are not sweeping around the sun at orbital speed, they define stationary lines forming an abstract disk ~ 5 200 or ~10 000 light seconds in diameter respectively.
That is how it turns out, for Sa-- turn; for Ju-pit-er, a pit, not a bilge. perhaps a bulge ?
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exchemist
Valued Senior Member
Since the point moves at orbital velocity for that radius, there is no tendency for it to "fall" inward towards the sun.