James R "Kaffir" is not an insult.

Discussion in 'Site Feedback' started by EmptyForceOfChi, Mar 2, 2011.

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  1. Gustav Banned Banned

    as an atheist, i would very much be honored if i were referred to as a kafir
    please oblige
    some venom too

    that fucking kafir, gustav!

    /happy eek
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2011
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  3. Gustav Banned Banned

    oh my!
    a project

    Notable Kafirs in Sci

    tt in atm

    first place goes to our fearless leader, the mighty jamesr
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2011
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  5. Gustav Banned Banned

    1 f or 2?
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  7. Gustav Banned Banned

    i got it

    1 f=unbeliever
    2 f's= african
  8. Bells Staff Member

    Which is interesting.

    I am, by definition, a "Kaffir" in Chi's world because I am an atheist. And not once has he ever looked down on me or been insulting. Quite the contrary, he has always been obscenely polite and courteous, even when I disagreed with him about something. Not once did he ever 'look down' on me.

    Well you got away with calling him a scrotum. Why do you think that is?

    And yet, we support and ignore similar supremacism, be it political, from many others on this forum.

    I'd always assumed he had started out as a Jew.

    And possibly converted or something or other.

    But you bring up an interesting point. Should we only sanction when supremacists use the word and ignore it when others use it?

    Again, if the word or its use is so bad, why not ban it entirely or restrict its usage on this forum?

    Most importantly, why do you think Geoff responded in jest when referred to as a kaffir by Gustav but was insulted when Chi used it?

    Well obviously he cannot.

    He is quite sensitive you know. Very much so.

    If the amount of reports are anything to go by.

    I believe you have a point there Scrotum.
  9. Gustav Banned Banned

    chi is spamming god shit, is he not?
    please hang

    chi insulting atheists?
    a box of sci's finest chocolates please

    we owe those retards that much
    an even playing field
  10. Gustav Banned Banned


    no one reported it?
    for better or for worse, biases withstanding, james feels duty bound to act on some/all reports
  11. Gustav Banned Banned


    is it biases withstanding or biases notwithstanding?

    i favor the latter

  12. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member


    This dispute centers on an issue of LINGUISTICS so I am going to ASSUME AUTHORITY.

    This is an English-language website, so the rules and conventions of the English language guide all rules and decisions. If anyone wants to start a thread in Arabic or any other language, they are welcome to do so. But if you're going to write in English, you must obey the rules of English.

    In English, the K-word is not only an insult, but it is one of the most vile insults we have. It is comparable to the N-word, which is so vile that most of us don't even spell it out except in a scholarly discussion on the Linguistics subforum, where we're talking about its origin, spelling pronunciation, etc.

    The reason for this is that the K-word entered our language through South African English, one of the recognized standard dialects of English. It has come to be an offensive term for people of African ancestry or ethnicity, which makes it almost identical to the N-word in American English. However, unlike in America, a nation of rebels and iconoclasts, where the N-word has been appropriated by Afro-Americans and rehabilitated, this has not happened with the K-word in South Africa. As far as I can tell, it is NEVER spoken in polite company, it is NEVER spoken on radio or TV, and it is NEVER printed. Its use appears to actually be illegal there, although I don't know what the punishment is.

    So, in addition to deeply offending any South Africans who wander into our website looking for scholarship, this word could actually get us BANNED FROM THE COUNTRY by corporate, government and educational filters, if it starts showing up here with any regularity. This defeats SciForums's mission of being a place of science and scholarship for the whole world. We are not going to jeopardize this mission so that some precocious kid can get his rocks off by defying the instructions of the Moderators and Administrators, just to show off how cool and macho he is.

    So consider this a warning to the entire membership: If I see the K-word again on SciForums, or if someone alerts me to its presence, I WILL DELETE THE POST. If it happens a second time, I WILL BAN THE MEMBER WHO POSTED IT.

    I don't know how James feels about this. But I have always operated on the principle that it is much easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. So he and I can argue about it when and if it happens. I'm sure he does not want us blacked out in South Africa either. We've gone to a lot of trouble to avoid getting tangled in the filters in certain European nations, so were not about to let it happen somewhere else.
  13. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    The blind sculptor

    Damn. I admit, I had no idea.

    Well, you've misplaced the term then. You have no right to scoff at another person's offense at a label, merely because it shares spelling (or even origin) with another word with a different, even more antagonistic intent. You can own the term as much as you like...when it's meant in the manner you describe.

    Yes, I think so, unless he meant it as a sarcastic joke and knew me quite well. But Chi doesn't know me well, and doesn't mean it like that. You see the difference? Do you see the irony of your defense?

    O-kay: way off on a tangent here, and a wrong one. I complain about its application in law, but then again I'm not exactly on board with Pat Robertson either, am I?

    And this part is totally unrelated to the first. I complain about being referred to in using a derogatory term (think "hand-wringing") in a derogatory way. But this part of the sentence doesn't really jive with the first: it's not as though my choices are complaining about Islamist politics that I should be attacked. I mean, I think you know this term is offensive implicitly from the contrast you're trying to make here: I complain, so I must be complained about in turn. But next you make this point:

    Well, make up your mind: is the term offensive, in which case I deserve to be offended in turn, or inoffensive, in which case I have misconstrued it, as in your second argument? It really doesn't matter what the correct group that can be called kafir is: it matters that the term itself is offensive.

    It certainly would...if it led there.

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    I know you're attempting to direct this off into other channels, but it doesn't scan and so I have to stop you there.

    None, because I know he's not a devout Muslim trying to defame me. You see the difference?

    This is also a mischaracterization of my comment, as you full well know.

    Then, there it is. :shrug:

    Yes, I considered the possibility: I suppose you have inside knowledge. The other little trick in the can is that I don't take gustav particularly seriously, even though I respect his views and his comments. And I can assure you, at some point or other I'd decide that gustav had gone "far enough"; but you also have to understand that Gustav isn't an Islamic supremacist - whereas Chi, as you admit, is - and so the insult coming from him isn't terribly troubling. It's like an atheist calling me a heathen - a curiosity, certainly, but not much of a meaningful attack. You're attempting to try and play a racist card, but it's one that, as usual, doesn't wash.

    It's funny that you go on about demeaning, and meaning, whilst actually demeaning a little. :shrug:
  14. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Fraggle: good and alarming point. Maybe the thread should be closed and scrapped.
  15. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member


    Which particular slurs are you referring to? Got a link?

    If I recall correctly, EFC was actually banned recently for preaching his religion. Since his recent encounter with his god he has apparently decided to make it his mission on sciforums to preach Islam to the unbelievers. We're not that kind of site*, and that has been pointed out quite clearly to EFC, first with warnings, then with bans, as is the normal course of action with such things.

    So did other people. Geoff was only one person to report EFC's posts. Anyway, does it matter to you that it was Geoff? Is it ok in your book to insult Geoff? Is he not deserving of the same protections that all other members get against being insulted?

    Probably. I must say I didn't notice those until you pointed them out.

    Two wrongs don't make a right, Bells. You're making a basic error there that also often comes up when somebody is sanctioned. When X is sanctioned, all X's supporters come out saying "But look what Y said. It was much worse." That doesn't affect X's breach of the site rules. If Y were reported or his posts noticed by a passing moderator, Y would also be sanctioned.

    If you called quad a scrotum and he hit the "report" button, I would have no problem at all in warning you for it, followed by a ban if you continued the unwelcome behaviour.

    He can't, but you could.

    Are you requesting a ban for quadraphonics? If so, let me know and I can make it happen. It's quite fair if that's what you want.
  16. Gustav Banned Banned

    we now have in our midst, a mod gone mad

    i mean...whats next? bolded and CAPPED?

  17. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    I will pray for Bells if you will.
  18. Gustav Banned Banned

    oh cmon
    i was referring to frakking frag
  19. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Meh. It could happen.
  20. Bells Staff Member

    Oh I don't know James, last time someone called saw it as being "cleverly constructed shit", it all became twisted.

    Was he?

    Must have been some ban kick if he was banned all the way to God.

    No. We are not the kind of site that would promote a religion that is made up of "cleverly constructed shit".

    On the contrary.

    I firmly believe that Geoff is a precious little rose petal that deserves all the protection that you can afford him.


    Not at all. I just find it interesting that the other letters of the alphabet can call people whatever they want and it's never noticed.

    Well you have proof in this thread that he has no issues at all with being called Scrotum.

    So rest assured James.

    Not at all.

    I am not a precious little petal who runs to mummy each time someone says something mean to me.

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    But I am a kafir. By every sense of the word. Are you offended on my behalf if I call myself a kafir?

    Of course cherie. You were offended.

    There there.. it's alright. The big bad Muslim fellow is gone now. He cannot hurt you no more..

    No my sweet.

    All that matters is that you were offended.

    It's okay. Really.

    I am not complaining about you at all.

    But to whom?

    By its very original definition, you are a kafir. I am a kafir by the use of it in South Africa and by its religious connotation.

    However it matters not. You felt offended.

    And that's fine.

    But it very much does scan.

    A Muslim refers to you as a Kafir and you take offence. A non-Muslim refers to you by the exact same term and you treat it as a joke.

    So is it the word that offends you or its point of origination?

    I think you need to make that clear, lest some unwary Muslim member sees you joking about it with Gustav and mistakenly calls you that and you report him for insulting you.

    So you would not be offended if a non-devout Muslim referred to you as such?

    And defame you?


    Oh I am sorry. Are you feeling offended?

    Please excuse me. I beg for your forgiveness..

    Hmm.. indeed..

    Yes. I can read his mind.

    I always assumed Chi was a Jew of some sort or other.

    Chi is very much a supremacist, but is he an Islamic supremacist?

    But thank you for defining it for me. Kafir should only be deemed offensive if it is said by a "devout Muslim".

    Not at all cherie.

    We have to protect the most vulnerable of your community. And I can assure you, you are well protected by all of us.

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  21. Gustav Banned Banned

    so ahh...contexts.........wikishit and this

    1 - used primarily by classical Islamic doctrine to refer to those who "disbelieve" in one God - atheists and polytheists (but not Christian and Jews).

    2 - In recent times it is more of a "discriminatory" term against "unbelievers", "disbelievers" or "non-believers" in the Islamic faith. Muslim scholars have discouraged its use due to the Quran's command to use kind words.

    3 - In South Africa today, the term is used both as an insult, and by some, as a common word for a black person. In any case, the term is regarded by most as derogatory (in the same way as "nigger" in other countries). Use of the word has been actionable in South African courts since at least 1976 under the offense of crimen injuria: "the unlawful, intentional and serious violation of the dignity of another".

    4 - The population of African-Sri Lankans -- now numbering about 1,000 -- is mainly descended from slaves brought to the island after about 1500 by Portuguese colonialists.They are known as "Kaffirs", but the term is not the savage racial insult here that it is in other parts of the world, notably South Africa. "We are proud of our name. In Sri Lanka, it is not a racist word like the word negro or nigger," said Marcus Jerome Ameliana, who believes her ancestors came to Sri Lanka, then known as Ceylon, as Portuguese slaves.

    frag's megalomaniacal blanket ban of the term cannot work in these hallowed halls of higher learning



  22. Gustav Banned Banned

  23. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Or, not that you noticed, anyway. Good for you, I suppose. So what? Are you even disputing any of the relevant facts?

    Did I? Doesn't seem like the typical lag between offense and sanction has occurred. And I note some down-thread offer by one JamesR to pursue exactly such sanctions if you feel such are warranted.

    Didn't I just ask you that, and profess some difficulty in approaching such questions due to my non-privileged perspective?

    You realize that I do get banned and otherwise sanctioned here, with some regularity, and often exactly on the grounds of insult?

    So sanction that as well.

    My guess was some kind of Chinese philosophy, given the username.

    I wouldn't propose so specific of a rule, but it's going to be the case that the overwhelming majority of insulting uses of such labels are going to come from corresponding supremacists. It's pretty difficult for anyone else to use such terms in an offensive way, by definition.

    Isn't exactly such a usage prohibition what is being pursued? Fraggle seems pretty unequivocable about it, in fact.

    Because the former instance was humor, and the latter was insult. Obviously.

    Your fixation on Geoff is getting pretty weird.

    But do you?

    And, again, the insult there was that the scrotum was empty. Nothing particularly insulting about being called a scrotum, to me anyway.
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