Israeli/Hamas disregard for human life.

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You're kidding right? Wiseass I mean Weisglass already let it slip that that the Israeli disengagement from Gaza was a strategic decision to freeze Palestinian statehood. You don't "give freedom" by blockading food, fuel and water and starving children.
 
S.A.M. said:
...Israeli disengagement from Gaza was a strategic decision to freeze Palestinian statehood.
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Can you explain how this gesture would "freeze" palestinian statehood?

S.A.M. said:
You don't "give freedom" by blockading food, fuel and water and starving children.
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Can you explain how israel denying food and medical supplies to the gazans is supposed to benefit israel? As I said, it's hamas that is preventing israeli aid from reaching their people.
 
Yes everything is Hamas' fault; which is why Israel was so keen to see a radical political group in control of Gaza.

If you're liberal enough to stand the BBC news, the Israeli minister in charge of humanitarian aid could not answer Steven Sackur when asked if the border crossings would be opened, as the UN delegation in charge of the ground effort has said is absolutely required to even begin helping the war refugees.
Who are living on their own land, these people are now fleeing Israel and Hamas - the Zionist-inspired "final solution".

If you accept that people can flee or find safety from a bombing campaign, that all you have to do is let them know their house is about to be destroyed, you can accept that humanitarianism is a total blockade.

It's easy - just believe you belong to a special group of people God gives instructions to, you can do whatever you like.
 
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BenTheMan said:
Me? Seems like a mighty big claim. I don't summarily round up my political opposition and torture/execute them.

I was just pointing out that nobody in this conflict is without blood on their hands.

And, of course, I wonder how productive it is to quibble about who is at fault in all of this when innocent people are caught in the middle of this all.
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Right. Nobody is without blood on their hands. When innocent people (who are imprisoned, oppressed, starved and slaughtered) are caught in the middle, raising awareness is a means to improve their lot. See my original thread for breaking news.
 
p-brane said:
Can you explain how this gesture would "freeze" palestinian statehood?
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In the words of the Hon. Wiseass

"The disengagement plan is the preservative of the sequence principle. It is the bottle of formaldehyde within which you place the president's formula so that it will be preserved for a very lengthy period. The disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that's necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."

..."The withdrawal in Samaria is a token one. We agreed to only so it wouldn't be said that we concluded our obligation in Gaza."

You gave up the Gaza Strip in order to save the West Bank? Is the Gaza disengagement meant to allow Israel to continue controlling the majority of the West Bank?

"Arik doesn't see Gaza today as an area of national interest. He does see Judea and Samaria as an area of national interest. He thinks rightly that we are still very very far from the time when we will be able to reach final-status settlements in Judea and Samaria."

Does the evacuation of the settlements in Gaza strengthen the settlements in the West Bank or weaken them?

"It doesn't hurt the isolated, remote settlements; it's not relevant for them. Their future will be determined in many years. When we reach a final settlement. It's not certain that each and every one of them will be able to go on existing.

"On the other hand, in regard to the large settlement blocs, thanks to the disengagement plan, we have in our hands a first-ever American statement that they will be part of Israel. In years to come, perhaps decades, when negotiations will be held between Israel and the Palestinians, the master of the world will pound on the table and say: We stated already ten years ago that the large blocs are part of Israel."

If so, Sharon can tell the leaders of the settlers that he is evacuating 10,000 settlers and in the future he will be compelled to evacuate another 10,000, but he is strengthening the other 200,000, strengthening their hold in the soil.
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=485929

Can you explain how israel denying food and medical supplies to the gazans is supposed to benefit israel? As I said, it's hamas that is preventing israeli aid from reaching their people.
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It was a good joke?

The Hamas team had not laughed so much in a long time. The team, headed by the prime minister's advisor Dov Weissglas and including the Israel Defense Forces chief of staff, the director of the Shin Bet and senior generals and officials, convened for a discussion with Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni on ways to respond to the Hamas election victory. Everyone agreed on the need to impose an economic siege on the Palestinian Authority, and Weissglas, as usual, provided the punch line: "It's like an appointment with a dietician. The Palestinians will get a lot thinner, but won't die," the advisor joked, and the participants reportedly rolled with laughter. .
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=684258
 
S.A.M. said:
In the words of the Hon. Wiseass
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=485929
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You've misunderstood the central issue of this article. Our disagreement is about why sharon evacuated gaza. But the main thrust of the article isn't really meant to answer that question. In the words of the article, the question it really asks is the following:

"Is it Dov Weisglass who brought about Sharon's reversal of policy? Is he the eminence grise who imposed on the emperor of the settlements the decision to evacuate settlements? The settlers themselves are convinced that he is. They are certain that Weisglass is a devious Rasputin who found some dark way to make the czar do things that the czar himself, by himself, would never do.

However, Weisglass himself shrugs off these contentions. He doesn't deny that he supported the disengagement from the start. He doesn't hide the fact that he placed the facts on Sharon's desk. The political problem, the economic problem, the problem of refusenik soldiers. And he made it clear to the boss that the international community will never let up. That the Americans will not be able to support us for all time. But in the end I wasn't the one who made the decision, Weisglass says. The prime minister made the decision. While he, the bureau chief, was simply there at his side. He, the faithful advocate, simply sat with his client in the room throughout the entire process."

Whatever Weisglass councelled sharon to do, there's nothing in the article that allows the reader to draw hard and fast conclusions about what was actually going on in sharon's head when he took the decision, as Weisglass indicates in the above excerpt.

S.A.M. said:
It was a good joke?
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So you couldn’t come up with a reason why israel would deny humanitarian assistance to the gazans. I’m not surprised.
 
Yeah right, because what he said has not been proved by rapid expansion of settlements in the West Bank over the last two years.

And the fact that 12 year olds in Gaza have a growth rate of 8 year olds due to deliberate witholding of food by the Israelis to the point that UN food stores were shut down leaving NO food available for distribution for over 800,000 people is just a coincidence.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas Saturday said Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip was a "war crime," as the United Nations closed its food aid distribution centers in Gaza on Saturday.

"I would like to draw the attention of the international community to the tragedy that our people are enduring in Gaza and I call on them to intervene to end the unfair siege... which constitutes a war crime against our Palestinian people," Abbas said in published remarks.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1037504.html
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So tell me, what was the advantage to the Germans of keeping the Jews on one bowl of soup a day? Why did they do it?
 
S.A.M. said:
Yeah right, because what he said has not been proved by rapid expansion of settlements in the West Bank over the last two years.

And the fact that 12 year olds in Gaza have a growth rate of 8 year olds due to deliberate witholding of food by the Israelis to the point that UN food stores were shut down leaving NO food available for distribution for over 800,000 people is just a coincidence.


So tell me, what was the advantage to the Germans of keeping the Jews on one bowl of soup a day? Why did they do it?
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Yes, Hamas stealing Aid from the U.N. meant for the people of Gaza.


http://charter.net/news/read.php?id=15310357&ps=1012&cat=&cps=0&lang=en

UN says Hamas seized food aid, blankets in Gaza
Wednesday, February 4, 2009 11:56 AM EST
The Associated Press
By DIAA HADID Associated Press Writer


JERUSALEM (AP) — Hamas police seized thousands of blankets and food packages meant for the needy in Gaza, the U.N. said Wednesday, a move that could threaten the provision of aid essential for a majority of Gaza's impoverished residents.

Christopher Gunness, a spokesman for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, said Hamas policemen broke into an aid warehouse in Gaza City on Tuesday evening and confiscated 3,500 blankets and more than 400 packages of food.

"They were armed, they seized this, they took it by force," Gunness said, terming the seizure "absolutely unacceptable."

He said police confiscated aid meant for 500 families after U.N. officials refused to voluntarily hand it over to the Hamas-run Ministry of Social Affairs. Similar U.N. aid packages had already been distributed to 70,000 residents over the past two weeks.

The U.N. agency provides food, education and health care to more than half of Gaza's 1.4 million residents, but tensions between the UNRWA and Hamas could harm international donations.

"Does anyone really think that the Americans, who are our single largest donor, or the Europeans, who are our largest multination donor, would give us aid in the generous way they do if they thought that aid would go to terrorists?" Gunness said.
 
Buffalo Roam said:
Yes, Hamas stealing Aid from the U.N. meant for the people of Gaza.


http://charter.net/news/read.php?id=15310357&ps=1012&cat=&cps=0&lang=en

UN says Hamas seized food aid, blankets in Gaza
Wednesday, February 4, 2009 11:56 AM EST
The Associated Press
By DIAA HADID Associated Press Writer


JERUSALEM (AP) — Hamas police seized thousands of blankets and food packages meant for the needy in Gaza, the U.N. said Wednesday, a move that could threaten the provision of aid essential for a majority of Gaza's impoverished residents.

Christopher Gunness, a spokesman for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, said Hamas policemen broke into an aid warehouse in Gaza City on Tuesday evening and confiscated 3,500 blankets and more than 400 packages of food.

"They were armed, they seized this, they took it by force," Gunness said, terming the seizure "absolutely unacceptable."

He said police confiscated aid meant for 500 families after U.N. officials refused to voluntarily hand it over to the Hamas-run Ministry of Social Affairs. Similar U.N. aid packages had already been distributed to 70,000 residents over the past two weeks.

The U.N. agency provides food, education and health care to more than half of Gaza's 1.4 million residents, but tensions between the UNRWA and Hamas could harm international donations.

"Does anyone really think that the Americans, who are our single largest donor, or the Europeans, who are our largest multination donor, would give us aid in the generous way they do if they thought that aid would go to terrorists?" Gunness said.
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Instead of nit picking, I think you need to ask yourself a very simple question. Why does Gaza need humanitarian aid?
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090204...laws_of_war;_ylt=AsiSfQYPkPwgxHTWzl8t.FQLewgF
if true this is positive proof of Israeli war crimes if 155mm shells were really found. the given 30 yard margin of error in land of the shell and the 300yard blast radius( I personaly think those numbers are backwards but I will differ to my source) clearly is not doing everything feasible to limit civilian casualties. and if want my opinion on hamas' war crimes its the same as my sources.
 
pjdude1219 said:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090204...laws_of_war;_ylt=AsiSfQYPkPwgxHTWzl8t.FQLewgF
if true this is positive proof of Israeli war crimes if 155mm shells were really found. the given 30 yard margin of error in land of the shell and the 300yard blast radius( I personaly think those numbers are backwards but I will differ to my source) clearly is not doing everything feasible to limit civilian casualties. and if want my opinion on hamas' war crimes its the same as my sources.
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This is only a drop in the ocean. A telling indicator that the IDF knowingly committed war crimes, was the blanket ban on journalists and media into the conflict zone during the assault on a people with no proportional way of fighting back. Its called genocide.
 
StrawDog said:
Why have they pursued this alleged policy?
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Don't ask me ask them, it hasn't been to their advantage to do so, has it?

The Reality is that they have lost, they lost in 1948, and should have made peace.

So what have they gained since then?
 
I'm trying to understand the Israel-Zionist mantra: "Gaza is completely free".
They withdrew, but maintained their nightly infiltrations, to assassinate people; they left Gaza, surrounded it and left Palestinians "free" to elect a radical group, Israel supported this, armed them and waited for the showdown? Divide and rule looks the same from most angles you look at it.

Now since Hamas is a terrorist organisation, according to the mantra, Palestinians will realise their mistake, accept that Israel is their only salvation and convert to Judaism?

Yeah, right.
 
Oh, another question the Israeli "humanitarian" minister would not answer, was if they would allow an independent inquiry into the facts of their campaign, regarding accusations of breach of international war regulations.

Asked if he had seen the newsclip of WP raining down on a UN school, he went into bullshit mode and kept insisting the IDF has an independent inquiry mechanism, that Israel "explores, with great sadness, the consequences of having to go to war".

Mr Sackur was obliged to interrupt his self-righteous monologue several times. Obviously the minister thought he had an opportunity to plug a few Judaic myths on the telly.
 
disease said:
I'm trying to understand the Israel-Zionist mantra: "Gaza is completely free".
They withdrew, but maintained their nightly infiltrations, to assassinate people; they left Gaza, surrounded it and left Palestinians "free" to elect a radical group, Israel supported this, armed them and waited for the showdown? Divide and rule looks the same from most angles you look at it.

Now since Hamas is a terrorist organisation, according to the mantra, Palestinians will realise their mistake, accept that Israel is their only salvation and convert to Judaism?

Yeah, right.
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What is not to understand?

Gaza is free to pursue peace or war.

Pursue Peace and build and finally have a life.......

Pursue War, and the arms for War, and live on the generosity of their enemies.

When Israel can be assured that weapons are not being smuggled with the food, then the crossings will be opened.

Just how many weapons can Hamas smuggle?

Enough to start another ass whipping by the Israelis, but not enough to ever win this endless war.

Even the Arab States are growing tired of Hamas and the Palestinians. What did the Arabs States do to support Hamas in their war against Israel?

The only real help was from Iran, Persians, and the Arabs are more afraid of Iran than they are of Israel, and Hamas cozying up to Iran wins them no points with the Arab States, in fact it hurts.
 
Buffalo Roam said:
Don't ask me ask them, it hasn't been to their advantage to do so, has it?

The Reality is that they have lost, they lost in 1948, and should have made peace.

So what have they gained since then?
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If a complete stranger comes into your house (forcibly) and says he is taking four fifths of your house for his own use, and all without any kind of debate or compensation ... do you think this is remotely fair?

You think they SHOULD have made peace?
 
disease said:
Oh, another question the Israeli "humanitarian" minister would not answer, was if they would allow an independent inquiry into the facts of their campaign, regarding accusations of breach of international war regulations.

Asked if he had seen the newsclip of WP raining down on a UN school, he went into bullshit mode and kept insisting the IDF has an independent inquiry mechanism, that Israel "explores, with great sadness, the consequences of having to go to war".

Mr Sackur was obliged to interrupt his self-righteous monologue several times. Obviously the minister thought he had an opportunity to plug a few Judaic myths on the telly.
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That is called spin. But the truth will eventually come out.
 
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