Israeli/Hamas disregard for human life.

Discussion in 'World Events' started by StrawDog, Feb 5, 2009.

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  1. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

    pjdude, the British gave the Arabs all the military equipment that they had brought into Palestine when they held the mandate.

    Here are the TO&E list of the forces in 1948 and 1949, and if you can comprehend the names and equipment and originazation titles, you will see that the Arabs were mostly armed with British Equipment and especially the, Arab Leigon of Jordan, which was Commanded by British Officers.

    John Bagot Glubb
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    -Syria-Lebanon campaign
    1948 Arab-Israeli War
    Awards - Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath
    Companion of the Order of St Michael and St George
    Distinguished Service Order
    Officer of the Order of the British Empire
    Other work Author
    Lieutenant-General Sir John Bagot Glubb KCB, CMG, DSO, OBE, better known as Glubb Pasha (born 16 April 1897, Preston, Lancashire – died 17 March 1986, Mayfield, Sussex), was a British soldier best known for leading and training Transjordan's Arab Legion 1939-1956 as its commanding general:

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    Glubb Pasha on the right with King Abdullah in the middle

    Trans-Jordanian Arab Legion 1948
    Over 7,000 men under Pasha Glubb, although Brigadier Lash commanded in the field (Lunt, 1999, says 7,000; Collins & Lapierre, 1972, say 7,500). The main force was 4,500 troops in the two mechanised brigades including armoured cars and artillery. The remainder were support troops, including presumably the garrison companies. By the end of the war the Legion had 10,000 soldiers in arms.

    Overall organisation
    Details from Laffin (1982a), Lunt (1999), Collins & Lapierre (1972).

    1 x Divisional Headquarters (under Brigadier Lash)

    2 x Mechanized Brigades

    1 x Brigade Headquarters

    1 x Brigade Signals unit

    2 x Mechanized Infantry Regiment *

    1 x Regimental Headquarters

    1 x Armoured Car Troop

    10 - 12 Marmon-Herrington armoured cars Mk IVF (2-pounder gun and a Browning machine gun). I assume these were organised into sub-units of 4 given Lt. Zaal Errhavel commanded 4 on the attack on Notre Dame.

    1 x Motorised Support Company

    1 x Anti-tank platoon/Troop

    4 x 6-pounder anti-tank guns towed by trucks

    1 x Mortar platoon/troop

    4 x 3-inch mortars (presumably carried in trucks)

    1 x Machinegun platoon/troop

    1 x Pioneer/Engineer platoon

    4 x Motorised Infantry Companies/Squadrons (on Ford trucks) **

    3 x Infantry Platoons

    2 x Artillery Batteries/troops (under Lt-Col Hearst)

    4 x 25-pounders

    2 x Independent Regiments (5th & 6th) ***

    6-pound anti-tank guns (not sure where they were assigned in the TO&E).


    * The regiments were single battalion units. Battalions 1, 2 and 3 were the old Bedouin regiments from the Arab Mechanised Force. The fourth Infantry was improvised from 4 Garrison Companies that weren't disbanded, and like all the Garrison Companies was relatively poorly trained and equipped. The regiments were divided into the Brigades as follows:

    1st Brigade (Col. Goldie)

    1st Regiment (Lt-Col. Blackden)

    3rd Regiment (Lt-Col Newman)

    3rd Brigade (Col. Ashton)

    2nd Regiment (Maj. Slade)

    4th Regiment (Lt-Col Habis Majali)

    ** Unfortunately Lunt (1999), who should have known, doesn't mention the number of companies in each regiment. Shamir (2001) says there were four companies, and this coincides with the fact that the 4th Infantry regiment was formed from four Garrison companies, however, when describing the positions of the 4th Battalion at Latrun in 1948 Shamir only mentions three infantry companies plus a support company. Kurzman (1970) mentions only three companies in the 3rd Regiment. Laffin (1982a) says 4 rifle companies each of 3 platoons. Shamir states there were four platoons per company.

    *** The independent regiments were also formed from Garrison companies that were meant to be disbanded. (By Feb 1948 only 7 Garrison companies remained of the original 16.)

    5th Independent Regiment

    12th Independent company ???

    2 other companies

    6th Independent Regiment

    1st Independent company (Cap. Abdullah Tell)

    8th Independent company

    Shamir (2001) mentions the Legion having Piat anti-tank grenade launchers, 2 inch mortars, and Vickers machine guns.

    Now if you read the rest of the TO&E for the Arabs a large ammout of the Arab equipment is British, with a Lot of ex-German armor and equipment, and less supplies of French Equipment.

    So who did the British arm and help against whom?

    The Arabs against the Israeli, even to the point of commanding Arab forces.
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  3. joelunchbox Banned Banned

    Isn't blind, determined fanaticism fascinating.

    In which the fanaticist continually inverts their own internal argument, but their point of view is essentially unchanged.
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  5. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

    pjdude, now show in verifiable citation your claims.

    From the U.N. own report, the Arabs didn't have the moneys to develop the agriculture, so it is not a baseless claim.

    If my claims are baseless show me the census that show that I am wrong, census from the Ottoman Empire? The British Mandate? the U.N.?

    The reason the land west of the Jordan was divided as it was was because of who owned what land, their national identity, the majority population, and where those populations were.

    So now show in verifiable citation not your truncated supposition, that the Jews were on land that they did not own and hold title to, develop and nurture into Fruit Orchards/Farms.

    ps: and provide proof that the Jews stole that land from the Arabs.

    Now just how long do you think it take to develop a producing Fruit Orchard/Farm?

    How many years?

    If they bought it pre developed, then they own it, have title to it, and hold Deed to it, so how then should the Arabs demand that it be given to them?

    When you pay for property, by legal rights you own that Property.

    You have just destroyed your own argument.
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  7. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

    Really? Roll call vote of Nations in the U.N. at the time of passing of U.N. 181.

    Afghanistan, Egypt, Greece' Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.

    All members of the U.N. all involved in the committees that developed the Resolution, all voting on the resolution, so where do you get that they weren't consulted? or involuved?

    As to the Palestinians, there was no such entity as the Palestinians, they were Arabs and addressed as Arabs by the U.N. and the Arab Countries.

    The first political mention of Palestinians came only after the Arabs lost the 1967 Six Day War.

    That is the first time we hear about this mythical nation called Palestine.

  8. 1100f Banned Registered Senior Member

    They bought it, they own it
  9. joelunchbox Banned Banned

    What does "they own it" mean?

    Does it mean: "the money we have paid means we can defend it to the death, and capture more of it as we do".

    Or does it mean: "we traded our dignity as a people for a piece of dirt we need to defend to the death, from all the people we pissed off when we started defending it".
  10. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

    Then explain this?

    The volume of anti-Semitic books and articles published, the size and number of editions and impressions, the eminence and authority of those who write, publish and sponsor them, their place in school and college curricula, their role in the mass media, would all seem to suggest that classical anti-Semitism is an essential part of Arab intellectual life at the present time-almost as much as happened in Nazi Germany, and considerably more than in late nineteenth and early twentieth century France."[12]

    ^ The Oxford Handbook of Jewish Studies, p.208
    ^ Bernard Lewis, Semites and Antisemites New York/London: Norton, 1986, p. 256.

    Following the adoption by the United Nations of Resolution 181 in November 1947 and the declaration of the State of Israel in May 1948, several Arab countries adopted discriminatory measures against their local Jewish populations.[21][22] There were riots in Yemen and Syria. In Libya, Jews were deprived of citizenship, and in Iraq, their property was seized.[23] As a result, a large number of Jews were forced to emigrate from Arab lands, although many also emigrated for ideological reasons.[24] Over 700,000 Jews emigrated to Israel between 1948 and 1952, with approximately 285,000 of them from Arab countries.[25][24] Overall, about 850,000 Jews had left the Arab World by the early 1970s (according to official Arab documentation), with many of them leaving their property behind.[26] Today, these displaced Jews and their descendants represent 41% of the total population of Israel. For details, see Jewish exodus from Arab lands.

    ^ Why Jews Fled the Arab Countries by Ya'akov Meron. Middle East Quarterly, September 1995

    ^ Jews in Grave Danger in All Moslem Lands, The New York Times, May 16, 1948, quoted in Was there any coordination between Arab governments in the expulsions of the Middle Eastern and North African Jews? (JIMENA)

    ^ Aharoni, Ada (Volume 15, Number 1/March 2003). "The Forced Migration of Jews from Arab Countries". Routledge, part of the Taylor & Francis Group.

    ^ a b Aliyeh to Israel: Immigration under Conditions of Adversity - Shoshana Neumann, Bar-Ilan University, page 10.
    - Asia: Yemen - 45,127 (6.7), Turkey - 34,647 (5), Iraq - 124,225 (18), Iran - 25,971 (3.8), Syria and Lebanon - 3,162 (0.5), Eden - 3,320 (0.5); Africa: Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria - 52,565 (7.7), Libya - 32,130 (4.6) (Keren-Hayesod, 1953).
    Note: The numbers add up to 286,500 (without Turkey, see also: History of the Jews in Turkey).

    ^ '1942 - 1951', Jewish Agency for Israel.
    - During the first four years of statehood, the country had to struggle for its existence, while simultaneously absorbing over 700,000 immigrants.

    ^ "All I wanted was justice" - Adi Schwarz, Haaretz, Jan. 10 2008.
    - According to official Arab statistics, some 850,000 Jews left those countries from 1948 to the beginning of the 1970s, and about 600,000 of them were absorbed in Israel ... the property the Jews left behind in Arab countries ... Jewish-owned land alone is estimated at 100,000 square kilometers - four times the size of Israel.

    And this?

    The eleventh century, however, saw several Muslim pogroms against Jews; those that occurred in Cordoba in 1011 and in Granada in 1066.[7] In the 1066 Granada massacre, a Muslim mob crucified the Jewish vizier Joseph ibn Naghrela and massacred about 4,000 Jews.[8] In 1033 about 6,000 Jews were killed in Fez, Morocco by Muslim mobs.[9][10] Mobs in Fez murdered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, in 1465.[11]

    ^ Frederick M. Schweitzer, Marvin Perry., Anti-Semitism: myth and hate from antiquity to the present, Palgrave Macmillan, 2002, ISBN 0312165617, pp. 267–268.
    ^ Granada by Richard Gottheil, Meyer Kayserling, Jewish Encyclopedia. 1906 ed.
    ^ Moroccan Jews
    ^ The Forgotten Refugees - Historical Timeline
    ^ The Treatment of Jews in Arab/Islamic Countries

    Or this?

    In the Arab world, there were a number of pogroms which played a key role in the massive emigration from Arab countries to Israel. These occurred during rising tensions and violence in Palestine as Jews tried to secure a homeland there.

    In 1945, anti-Jewish rioters in Tripoli, Libya killed 140 Jews.
    The Farhud pogrom in Iraq killed between 200 and 400 Jews.

    For example, there were numerous incidents of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Jews in North Africa,[6] especially in Morocco, Libya and Algeria where eventually Jews were forced to live in ghettos.[7] Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in the Middle Ages in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Yemen.[8] At certain times in Yemen, Morocco and Baghdad, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death.[9]

    ^ The Forgotten Refugees
    ^ Maurice Roumani, The Case of the Jews from Arab Countries: A Neglected Issue, 1977, pp. 26-27.
    ^ The Treatment of Jews in Arab/Islamic Countries
    ^ Bat Ye'or, The Dhimmi, 1985, p.61

    More arrests and atrocities followed, culminating in 63 Jewish children being held hostage and mob attacks on Jewish communities throughout the Middle East. International outrage led to Ibrahim Pasha in Egypt ordering an investigation. Negotiations in Alexandria eventually secured the unconditional release and recognition of innocence of the nine prisoners still remaining alive (out of thirteen). Later in Constantinople, Moses Montefiore (leader of the British Jewish community) persuaded Sultan Abdülmecid I to issue a firman (edict) intended to halt the spread of blood libel accusations in the Ottoman Empire:

    "... and for the love we bear to our subjects, we cannot permit the Jewish nation, whose innocence for the crime alleged against them is evident, to be worried and tormented as a consequence of accusations which have not the least foundation in truth...".

    Nevertheless, pogroms spread through the Middle East and North Africa: Aleppo (1850, 1875), Damascus (1840, 1848, 1890), Beirut (1862, 1874), Dayr al-Qamar (1847), Jerusalem (1847), Cairo (1844, 1890, 1901-02), Mansura (1877), Alexandria (1870, 1882, 1901-07), Port Said (1903, 1908), and Damanhur (1871, 1873, 1877, 1891).[13]

    ^ Yossef Bodansky. "Islamic Anti-Semitism as a Political Instrument" Co-Produced by The Ariel Center for Policy Research and The Freeman Center for Strategic Studies, 1999. ISBN-10 0967139104, ISBN-13 978-0967139104
    ^ Lewis (1986), pg. 133

    Saudi Arabian media often attacks Jews in books, news articles, at their Mosques[23] and with what some describe as antisemitic satire.[24] Saudi Arabian government officials and state religious leaders often promote the idea that "the Jews" are conspiring to take over the entire world; as proof of their claims they publish and frequently cite The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as factual.[25][26]

    ^ 'Friday Sermons in Saudi Mosques: Review and Analysis', September 26, 2002 (MEMRI)
    ^ 'Antisemitic Satire on a Saudi TV Channel (MBC)', April 19, 2007 (VIDEO) (
    ^ CMIP report: The Jews in World History according to the Saudi textbooks. The Danger of World Jewry, by Abdullah al-Tall, pp. 140–141 (Arabic). Hadith and Islamic Culture, Grade 10, (2001) pp. 103–104.
    ^ 2006 Saudi Arabia's Curriculum of Intolerance, Report by Center for Religious Freedom of Freedom House. 2006

    [edit] Arab newspapers
    Many Arab newspapers, such as Al-Hayat Al-Jadidah, the Palestinian Authority's official newspaper, often write that "the Jews" control all the world's governments, and that "the Jews" plan genocide on all the Arabs in the West Bank. Others write less sensational stories, and state that Jews have too much of an influence in the US government. Often the leaders of other nations are said to be controlled by Jews.

    Articles in many official Arab government newspapers claim that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, reflects actual facts, and thus points to an international Jewish conspiracy to take over the world.

    "Netanyahu's Plan completely matches the foundations of the greater Zionist plan which is organized according to specific stages that were determined when the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was composed and when Herzl along with Weizmann traveled around the world in order to determine the appropriate location for the implementation of this conspiracy," (official Palestinian Authority newspaper, Al-Hayat Al-Jadidah, November 30, 1997)
    "The Jews seek to conquer the world...We must expose the Zionist-Colonialist plot and its goals, which destroy not only our people but the entire world" (PA Minister of Agriculture, Abdel Jawad Saleh, quoted in Al-Hayat Al-Jadidah, November 6, 1997)[40]

    ^ Palestinian Authority Anti-Semitism Since the Hebron Accord (Jewish Virtual Library)
  11. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

    Payment for real property is legally recognized as ownership.

    Now your statement should be aimed at the Arabs/Muslims who sold the land in the first place.
  12. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    if you honestly believe that than your a fool.

    Why would I do that? it has nothing to do with my argument.

    I'm not making that argument.

    50 or 60 years. so considering that the most unbiased reports said the region in the 1850's was lush would mean the jews had next to nothing to do with it.

    If the seller had illegally gained title to said land or gained it legally through the maniplation of the law to take advantage of the ill informed a case can be made that legally they did not have the right to sell said land with oout the consent of residents of it.

    also a little something that you like to ignore self-determination.

    No I haven't that would be something you would do. I had to seperate arguments against your rabid bigoted anti arab/muslim viewpoint and your overlapping the 2.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2009
  13. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    yes buffalo the british made such an effort to help the arabs that they killed off the arab leadership of palestine with the help and support of the jews. The jewish weaponary was also british and more modern.
  14. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

    How can you possibly be an Israeli if there is no Israel? The Jews have ONLY been Israelis since the State of Israel was created in 1947.

    There was no historical people called the Israelis, this is a modern development. To use the fact that Jews were Israelis to defend their historic claim to Palestine is dishonest.

    Of course, I have never disputed this.
  15. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

    What has that got to do with Fascism.

    You display the traits above.

    More BS. Once again, you have no idea what or who I am. To give you an example of tolerance, Jews are also entitled to humanitarian beliefs that sympathize with the oppressed and are appalled by Zionist atrocities.

    Where have I ever stated that Jews are responsible for all the problems of the world?

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    There you go again. Assumptions, assumptions.

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    I will make it easy for you and place this on the record. I intensely dislike the abuse of human rights wherever they occur.

  16. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

    More bullshit baffles brains BS. Deed Schmeed. Fruit Schmoot. The Palestinians were forcibly removed from the land of their forefathers, to create the state of Israel. They (the Palestinians) were not consulted, nor did they have a choice.

    Just ONE example.

  17. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

    Can you provide proof of such actions?

    I have posted proof, so where is your proof, as usual you don't have any.
  18. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member


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  19. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    you would just ignore it just like you ignored when I proved that the arabs were using WW1 era tanks.
  20. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    They arent first of all, the engines would be cu apart by the sand within a few years, and knowing how they have a sever shortage of engineers that even have the skill to find the ignition id be surprised if they could manage to make a new engine.
  21. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

    Didn't ignor that, so what was your point? The number of tanks light and medium tanks avalable to the Arab Forces was aproxamatly 345 vs 15 Israeli.

    The make up of the Arab armored force was:

    Light Tank Mk VI
    M22 Locust airbourne tank
    Valentines - a few companies
    Crusader tanks
    Stug III

    plus armored cars equiped with cannons:

    Humber Mk III Recce
    Humber Mk IVs
    Marmon-Herrington Mk IVF

    I listed the TO& E of all armies, verifiable citation of who supplied whom, and that the British hed taken part in the command of Arab Fprces in the 1948 war, which then blows you accusation that the British supplied the Israelis all to hell.

    The little bit of British Equipment that the Hagana posessed was bought in Europe and smuggled into the Palestinian Mandate past the British blocade, or stolen in place, 2 x Cromwells stolen from the British.

    You want to see the Artillery that the israelis were using?


    65 mm Artillery Battery

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    2 x 65 mm French Howitzers "Napoleonchiks" (increased to 4 after First Latrun)

    Here are the Armored forces of the Israelis at most 15 tanks:

    Herzog (1982) says the Armoured Cars were captured from the enemy, however, most were likely to have been home made jobs (Shamir, 2001).

    Organisation (Zaloga, 1981):

    82nd Tank Battalion (Felix Beatus)

    English (speaking) Company

    2 x Cromwells stolen from the British
    1 - 3 x Shermans rebuilt from scrap with French 75 mm guns

    Russian (speaking) Company

    10 x French Hotchkiss H-39 light tanks

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    M5/M9 1/2 tracks with 20 mm, 2-pdr and 6-pdr guns.

    Improvised a/cars based on Dodge truck or M3A1 scout cars.

    So now can you provide any citation to back up your statements witht he same detail as I have just provided to you?
  22. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member


    "To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites how he [Moses] first appeared amongst them. Pharoah said to him: 'Moses, I can see that you are bewitched.' 'You know full well,' he [Moses] replied, 'that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has revealed these visible signs. Pharoah, you are doomed.'"

    "Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."

    "We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning."

    [Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-104]

    the Holy Qur'an explicitly refers to the return of the Jews to the Land of Israel before the Last Judgment - where it says: "And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.'" [Qur'an 17:104]
  23. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

    You tell me? as your the one who brought it up.

    But every fascist state in modern time was rabidly anti Semite/Jew

    I am right of you but that don't make me a Fascist, actually Fascism is just right of Communism, and well left of European Liberalism/American Conservatism.

    Islam's political reality would seem to be based on the principles of Fascism.

    All you have to do is change just a few word of the definition of Fascism and you get a perfect description of Islam:

    Islam in plain Political and Theological words.

    Really, then could the same be said for you?

    To give you an example of tolerance: Palestinians are also entitled to humanitarian beliefs that sympathize with the murder of innocents and are appalled by Hamas's atrocities.

    Where haven't you?

    Then why haven't you condemned the Hamas organization?

    No, again when have you posted any condemnation of the Actions of Hamas?

    Every post you have made to me places the blame squarely on Israel, in a long and continuing mantra.
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