Is it possible to apply the concept of free will to any "matter"?

[DaveC426913]

Why would it transmit, Dave? If a star gravitationally bound to other objects were to explode somewhere, for example, how quickly would the other objects bound to it feel it?

It would take as long as the speed of light could travel that distance.

I'm not talking about gravitational waves here

Yes you are.

, but about the gravitational bond between objects.

Changes to which propagate at the speed of light.

The Sun and Earth are gravitationally bound. But if the Sun were sucked into a wormhole, the Earth would continue on its orbit for eight full minutes before it felt the effects. Because changes to the gravitational field take eight minutes to propagate from the Sun's position to the Earth.


Think about two boats on a lake, both bobbing up and down, making ripples. Yes, they are both sitting in the same lake, but they can only influence each other by their ripples. No effect betwern the two boats can travel faster than the water will permit. Even if the tide came in and lifted both boats, that tidal water cannot move faster than the water itself can move.

Likewise with gravity. Though every star is embedded in the gravity field, they can only influence each other by the propagation of their gravitational waves - which are limited to the speed of light.


I genuinely appreciate you asking questions and using the opportunity to learn.

 

[Olga]

It would take as long as the speed of light could travel that distance.


Yes you are.


Changes to which propagate at the speed of light.

The Sun and Earth are gravitationally bound. But if the Sun were sucked into a wormhole, the Earth would continue on its orbit for eight full minutes before it felt the effects. Because changes to the gravitational field take eight minutes to propagate from the Sun's position to the Earth.


Think about two boats on a lake, both bobbing up and down, making ripples. Yes, they are both sitting in the same lake, but they can only influence each other by their ripples. No effect betwern the two boats can travel faster than the water will permit. Even if the tide came in and lifted both boats, that tidal water cannot move faster than the water itself can move.

Likewise with gravity. Though every star is embedded in the gravity field, they can only influence each other by the propagation of their gravitational waves - which are limited to the speed of light.


I genuinely appreciate you asking questions and using the opportunity to learn.

Нет, Дэйв. Законы Кеплера, и Нютоновскую механику ещё никто не отменял. Если наше Солнце внезапно исчезнет, все планеты слетят со своих орбит мгновенно.

 

[DaveC426913]

If our Sun suddenly disappeared, all the planets would be thrown off their orbits instantly.

This is false. Gravitational perturbations propagate at the speed of light.

A little bit of reading on the subject will clear up your confusion.

 

[Olga]

This is false. Gravitational perturbations propagate at the speed of light.

A little bit of reading on the subject will clear up your confusion.

Дэйв, я достаточно знаю об этой теме. Гравитационные возмущения тут ни при чём. И гравитон никто пока не обнаружил.

 

[Pinball1970]

Дэйв, я достаточно знаю об этой теме. Гравитационные возмущения тут ни при чём. И гравитон никто пока не обнаружил.

Something happens in the sun we see/feel/detect 8 minutes later.

 

[Pinball1970]

Дэйв, я достаточно знаю об этой теме. Гравитационные возмущения тут ни при чём. И гравитон никто пока не обнаружил.

The universe is restricted by the speed of light. (...and HUP.....)

 

[Olga]

Something happens in the sun we see/feel/detect 8 minutes later.

Неа.

 

[Olga]

The universe is restricted by the speed of light. (...and HUP.....)

А как быть с "жутким дальнодействием"?

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

The universe is restricted by the speed of light.

As far as we know today. That can change if exceptions are found in the furies.

(...and HUP.....)

HUP only predicts the precision with which the two pairs of variables can be known or measured. This too can change.

 

[DaveC426913]

Dave, I know enough about this topic.

Then why are you saying incorrect things?

We can only go on what facts you speak, not on your assurances.

So far you are saying things that someone who does not understand gravitation would say.

Gravitational disturbances have nothing to do with it.

Gravitational disturbances is influence at a distance. Which is what we are discussing.

Keep studying.

And no one has yet detected the graviton.

We are not talking gravitons here.

 

[Olga]

Then why are you saying incorrect things?

We can only go on what facts you speak, not on your assurances.

So far you are saying things that someone who does not understand gravitation would say.



Gravitational disturbances is influence at a distance. Which is what we are discussing.

Keep studying.


We are not talking gravitons here.

А о чём тогда вы здесь говорите? Вы говорите о том, что гравитация - это гравитационные волны, следовательно, у них есть переносчик - гравитон. Или я вас неправильно понимаю?

 

[James R]

Purely theoretically, if our visible material universe is infinite, then determinism is in a sense abolished by infinity.

No. If the universe is deterministic and the same laws of physics apply everywhere, then it doesn't matter how big the universe is - even if it is infinite.

In practice, though, we only have access to one part of the universe. We can only observe things in a sphere around the Earth that have taken place in the past 13.8 billion years.

That is, an infinite number of causes will lead to an infinite number of effects.

Not all effects are allowed by the laws of physics, even in an infinite universe. And certainly not in the visible universe that is accessible to us.

Why is the universe not homogeneous?

Small inhomogeneities in the distribution of matter formed in the big bang. We can see evidence of this in the cosmic microwave background radiation.

In an infinite universe, we have an infinite number of objects, each of which affects all the others...

No, because even a universe that is infinite in space is not infinite in time. Objects can only affect one another if a light signal could possibly have travelled from one object to the other, in the lifetime of the universe (i.e. about 13.8 billion years). We can see objects in opposite directions from the Earth, therefore, that can never have affected one another in any way.

Meanwhile:

27 days of no answers from Olga about how free will or the soul works in the Olgaverse.

(Will any answers ever be coming, Olga?)

 

[James R]

Olga:

I think it will be fair to close this thread soon, if you can't produce any answers to my questions about souls and soul matter and how souls can create free will.

I think a reasonable deadline is 30 days with no answers from you. It will be reasonable to assume, after such a long time, that you either can't answer the questions I asked you, or that you don't intend to answer them.

In either case, there's very little point in leaving you to just repeat the same empty claims, ad nauseam.

So, let's set the time limit for you to provide some answers at 3 days from now, shall we? That's more than fair, I think.

 

[Olga]

No. If the universe is deterministic and the same laws of physics apply everywhere, then it doesn't matter how big the universe is - even if it is infinite.

In practice, though, we only have access to one part of the universe. We can only observe things in a sphere around the Earth that have taken place in the past 13.8 billion years.

Not all effects are allowed by the laws of physics, even in an infinite universe. And certainly not in the visible universe that is accessible to us.

Small inhomogeneities in the distribution of matter formed in the big bang. We can see evidence of this in the cosmic microwave background radiation.

No, because even a universe that is infinite in space is not infinite in time. Objects can only affect one another if a light signal could possibly have travelled from one object to the other, in the lifetime of the universe (i.e. about 13.8 billion years). We can see objects in opposite directions from the Earth, therefore, that can never have affected one another in any way.

Meanwhile:

27 days of no answers from Olga about how free will or the soul works in the Olgaverse.

(Will any answers ever be coming, Olga?)

Джеймс, вы же физик? Тогда зачем глупости говорите? По вашему мнению Вселенная соединена только светом? А в те времена, когда фотонов ещё не было, что её соединяло?
Вселенная не бесконечна во времени? Тогда она вообще не существует.

 

[James R]

Here's the most recent list of questions for you, Olga.

Unanswered questions are in bold. Answered question numbers are in italics, along with brief summaries of Olga's answers to those questions.

I have tried to group related questions together. I have adjusted the numbering of related questions a little, to avoid possible confusion between the Russian and English alphabets.

Question list
1. Does consciousness exist outside of the universe? No. There is no "outside" the Universe.
9. Can you demonstrate that the outside of the universe - where the souls live - is real? No.
2. What is the process by which consciousness outside the universe can control a physical body inside the universe? The question doesn't make sense. (See Q1.)
4.1 Are rocks conscious? No.
4.2 Are human beings conscious? Yes.
4.3 Are there any important differences between the matter in a rock and the matter in a human being, that might make one conscious and the other not? Living animals consist of cells.
4.4 How do cells make a thing conscious?
13. Did you read post #372? Yes
14. Did you understand the content of post #372? Yes
15. Do you agree, in light of the content of post #372, that your assertion that the human body works on electricity was naive and incorrect? Yes
8. Can you demonstrate that souls are real?
5. Do souls exist outside of normal space and time (i.e. outside the universe)? No. (See Q1)
6. How can a soul that exists outside of the universe control matter (e.g. a human body) inside the universe? Irrelevant. (See Q1)
10. Can you demonstrate that souls can communicate with bodies that are inside the universe?
11. If the answers to questions 8 and 10 are "No", why are you confident that souls are real?

3.2 Are souls immaterial?
3. Can any immaterial thing affect anything that is material? If the answer is "yes", please explain how it can do that.

7. Why can souls violate the laws of nature?
21. Do you think you have free will, Olga, or not? Yes.
48. If the body is not free, how can you say you have free will? Nobody can forbid you to desire. That means that your will is free.
23. Previously, you said there can be no free will allowed by natural laws inside our universe. Do you still think this is true? Yes.
24. If souls exist inside our universe, can they have free will? Yes. They have free will. This is their basis, their essence.
26. If something can violate the laws of nature, does that mean it is magical? Yes. Magic, as described, is impossible.
26.1 You said that magic is impossible. You also said that souls can violate the laws of nature, which means they are magical. This implies that souls cannot exist, by your argument. Do you agree?
26.2 If your answer to 26.1 is "No", then which of your previous claims, from which the conclusion logically follows, do you want to withdraw, now?

17. Do souls exist inside the universe? Yes.
18. If souls exist inside the universe, where are they? They are inside people (or at least two of them are, inside Olga and James R).
19. If souls exist inside the universe, how can we detect them? Indirect signs.
41. What are the indirect signs that that souls exist inside the universe?
19.1 Can we see the soul on an x-ray of the human body?
16. Is a human being basically a modernized stone? If not, what makes a human being fundamentally different from a computer (e.g. large language model AI)?

20. How can a soul that exists inside the universe control a human body?
21.1 Does the soul control the human brain?
21.2 Can the human brain operate independently of the soul?
21.3 How does the brain communicate with the soul?
21.4 How can we detect the transmissions between the soul and the brain/body?

22. Do souls give matter free will? If they do, how do that do that?
25. What mechanism allows special non-physical soul matter to have freedom and will?

34.1 Did you read post #339?
34.2 Did you understand it?
35. If you understood post #339, why did you repeat yourself, asking a question that I had already answered in that post?

36. What evidence do you have that you have a soul inside you?
36.1 If the soul lives inside us, where does it live, exactly? (i.e. in which part of the body?)
37. What evidence do you have that there is a soul inside me?

38.1 How are souls connected to the entire universe? What do you mean?
38.2 What form does the connection take?
38.3 What do souls use to make the connections?
39. How do you know that souls are connected to the entire universe?
40. If your soul is connected to my soul, both of which are inside the universe, how can we confirm this?

42.1 Do you have special abilities for detecting souls that I don't have?
42.2 If you have special soul detecting abilities, how do they work?
42.3 If you have special souls detecting abilities, why don't I have them, too?
42.4 How many people have special soul detecting abilities, apart from yourself? And how did you determine this?

43. What is your definition of matter? Matter is that which exists.
43.2 Does anything exist that is not matter, according to you?
32. If you don't know what matter is, why did you repeatedly claim that no matter can have free will? Wouldn't it have been better to start by asking "What is matter?", so that you knew what you were talking about?
44. Can matter have freedom and will in your understanding of matter? Physical matter cannot.
44.2 What kinds of matter are there, apart from physical matter? Spirit and soul.
27. Do you have any evidence for the existence of material that souls are made of, that is "something else besides the matter we know"? Yes.
27.1 How much does a soul, made of special soul matter, weigh?
45. What evidence do you have for the existence of material that souls are made of, that is "something else besides the matter we know"?
47. In the context of matter and fields, what do you mean by "fundamental"? Fundamental is what everything consists of. Base.
49.1 Do you know what everything consists of? Approximately.
49.3 What does everything consist of? Is it all matter?
49.2 What is at the "base" of "matter" (all that exists, according to your definition)?

52. How does a particular soul become attached to a particular human body?
52.1 Where do souls come from?
52.2 Where does the soul go after the body dies?
52.3 Where is the soul when the body is in a coma?

28. Do you understand the definition of "free will" I posted in post #200, above? Yes.
29. What is wrong with the definition of "free will" that I gave in post #200? It is naive.
46. Why is the definition of free will that I posted in post #200 naive? The very ability to desire is freedom of will. You confuse it with the freedom of the body (freedom of action).
48.2 The brain is made of physical matter. Can the brain desire?
Q53.1 Is there a problem with the definition of free will that I posted in post #200?
Q53.2 If there is a problem, what is it?
Q53.3 Is there anything about matter that prevents a human being from having the free will defined in post #200?
30. Do you have a better, alternative definition of "free will", to the one in post #200? If your answer is "yes", please provide it and explain why it is better.

12. What convinced you that souls are real?
31. Where does your knowledge of souls come from?
51.1 How did you learn about souls? From whom or where did you get introduced to the idea of a soul?
51.2 If you learned about souls from a person, how did they know that souls are real?

50. Do you believe your soul continues to exist in the universe after you die?
50.1 Where does the soil go after you die?

 

[James R]

In your opinion, is the universe connected only by light?

No.

And back in the days when there were no photons, what connected it?

I don't understand your question. (By the way, there were no "days" when there were no photons. At best, there might have been a tiny subfraction of a second when there were no photons.)

Is the universe not infinite in time?

It does not have an infinite past. Have you heard of the big bang?

Why are you talking nonsense, Olga?

Then it doesn't exist at all.

I think you'll find that the universe exists, Olga. You seem confused.

I think you should start trying to answer some of those unanswered questions in post #775. The clock is ticking on this thread, you know.

 

[Olga]

No.

I don't understand your question. (By the way, there were no "days" when there were no photons. At best, there might have been a tiny subfraction of a second when there were no photons.)

It does not have an infinite past. Have you heard of the big bang?

Why are you talking nonsense, Olga?

I think you'll find that the universe exists, Olga. You seem confused.

I think you should start trying to answer some of those unanswered questions in post #775. The clock is ticking on this thread, you know.

Я не писала ни про какие дни. Это ошибка вашего перевода.

При чём тут БВ, Джеймс? Или вы действительно считаете, что Вселенная возникла из ничего? И эти люди рассказывают мне о волшебстве...

Конечно Вселенная существует. И всегда существовала. Из ничего ничего не бывает.

 

[Olga]

No.

I don't understand your question. (By the way, there were no "days" when there were no photons. At best, there might have been a tiny subfraction of a second when there were no photons.)

It does not have an infinite past. Have you heard of the big bang?

Why are you talking nonsense, Olga?

I think you'll find that the universe exists, Olga. You seem confused.

I think you should start trying to answer some of those unanswered questions in post #775. The clock is ticking on this thread, you know.

Я не буду отвечать на все эти вопросы. Не хочу. Имею право.

 

[James R]

I didn't write about any days. This is a mistake in your translation.

Maybe you wrote something like "Back at the time when there were no photons". The translation that I got was "Back in the days when there were no photons".

What does BV have to do with it, James?

What is BV? Big bang?

The universe began at the time of the big bang, Olga. Before that, there was no universe. This is what our best scientific cosmological models say.

Or do you really believe that the universe came from nothing?

All I know is that our universe started off very hot and very dense. I don't know anything about what happened prior to about 10^-33 seconds after the big bang.

How about you? Do you know how the universe began? If you do, tell me how you know.

And these people tell me about magic...

Magic is your thing, not mine, Olga.

Are you thinking about your answers to those questions I asked you about souls? You have a free day to think of some answers, since you just got yourself temporarily banned. Use your time wisely!

Of course, the Universe exists. And it has always existed.

How do you know that it has always existed? What about the big bang?

Do you not accept the big band theory? Why not?

Nothing comes out of nothing.

How do you know that?

I will not answer all these questions. I don't want to. I have the right.

It's entirely up to you.

You are very dishonest, Olga. You have not fooled me.

Did you really think I expected you would have some answers? Of course I did not expect that from you! You seem like a very mediocre thinker. That, in itself, is not a problem. You can only work within your own limitations. The problem is that you can't bring yourself to be honest.

Is this dishonesty what your Christianity teaches you, Olga? Or are you dishonest for other reasons?

 

[DaveC426913]

So what are you talking about here? You're saying that gravity is gravitational waves, and therefore they have a carrier—the graviton. Or am I misunderstanding you?

Gravity is a field. Like magnetism and electrical charge, it has a value everywhere in the universe.

Changes to that value can only propagate at the speed of light.

Thus, two particles A and B are separated by one light year, can only "influence" each other at the speed of light. If A moves, B won't know it for a year.

If one of those particles (say, A) is outside our observable universe, then nothing it does - whether via light, magnetism, electrical charge or gravity - can ever have any effect on our nearby particle B.


I thought you knew all this? Why is you saying 'I know all this already' invariably followed by you not knowing it?


(By the way, this is independent of gravitons. We have not observed gravitons yet, but our LIGO observations show that changes in gravity do propagate at c, thus gravitons will have to travel at the speed of light.)