Is it possible to apply the concept of free will to any "matter"?

[Olga]

A squealing pig getting it's tail pulled has more sense than you.

Of course, your post implies that you're attractive, yet I see only ugliness from your words.

Мартин, отойди от свиньи!

 

[Olga]

I would ask you to explain how you think it's wrong.

By invoking an infinite universe to address cause and effect, presumably you are referring to the idea that, in an infinite universe, there are only so many combinations of atoms before they must form duplicates. I.e. in an infinite universe, if you go far enough, you will have to encounter another world with an identical DaveC426913 on it. Presumably, you are thinking that the actions of that DaveC somehow affect the actions of this DaveC.

If thats not where you were going, no problem. Please explain your logic then as to how an infinite universe eliminates determinism, in your opinion.

В бесконечной Вселенной мы имеем бесконечное количество объектов, каждый из которых влияет на все остальные, т.е. является и причиной, и следствием. Если мы произвольно выберем любой объект(например, протон), то увидим, что в бесконечной Вселенной на него влияет бесконечное число других объектов, и следовательно, определённой причины с определённым следствием мы получить не можем.

 

[DaveC426913]

In an infinite universe, we have an infinite number of objects, each of which influences all the others,

No they don't.
They are casually separated. They cannot influence each other.

If we arbitrarily select any object (for example, a proton), we will see that in an infinite universe, it is influenced by an infinite number of other objects,

It is not. This is wrong.

Nothing can move faster than the speed of light - that includes cause-effect relationships. Objects this distant are outside each other's light cones, which means they cannot affect each other.

As expected, this is just one more discipline of science where you are out of your depth.

 

[Olga]

No they don't.
They are casually separated. They cannot influence each other.


It is not. This is wrong.

Nothing can move faster than the speed of light - that includes cause-effect relationships. Objects this distant are outside each other's light cones, which means they cannot affect each other.

As expected, this is just one more discipline of science where you are out of your depth.

Ха, не смеши меня, Дэйв. Чем они разделены? Да ещё и случайно?

Скорость света здесь вообще ни при чём.

 

[DaveC426913]

Ha, don't make me laugh, Dave. How are they separated? And by chance, no less?

The speed of light has nothing to do with it.

Ugh.

Let me guess: more OlgaMagic?


Ignorance or trolling. Pick one.

 

[Olga]

Ugh.

Let me guess: more OlgaMagic?


Ignorance or trolling. Pick one.

В твоём случае и то, и другое.

 

[Pinball1970]

Free will applies to humans, brains specifically. So the answer is no.

 

[Olga]

Free will applies to humans, brains specifically. So the answer is no.

Разве мозг - это не материя, Пин?

 

[Pinball1970]

Разве мозг - это не материя, Пин?

A specific type, living and then a specific Evolutionary pathway. That which incorporates a CNS with a brain, neurons, neurotransmitters.

BUT, we made up the term based on our anatomy so one could argue it just applies to us.

A dog looks like it makes choices when we let it off the lead. We can apply it those type of animals too.

Not a football, tree, virus, bacterium, viroid, mountain or river.

 

[Olga]

A specific type, living and then a specific Evolutionary pathway. That which incorporates a CNS with a brain, neurons, neurotransmitters.

BUT, we made up the term based on our anatomy so one could argue it just applies to us.

A dog looks like it makes choices when we let it off the lead. We can apply it those type of animals too.

Not a football, tree, virus, bacterium, viroid, mountain or river.

Как вы докажете, что действительно делаете выбор?

 

[Wizard of Whatever]

Free will applies to humans, brains specifically. So the answer is no.

It's much more than the brain. Real free will applies more to the incarnated being than its vehicle.

 

[DaveC426913]

In your case, it's both.

Once again, you make a wild claim while providing zero support for it, and then just walk way.

And we know you know better:

Science should explain, not postulate. That's what logic and analysis are for. Otherwise, it will just keep going in circles...

So, care to elaborate on this:

In an infinite universe, we have an infinite number of objects, each of which influences all the others, i.e., is both cause and effect. If we arbitrarily select any object (for example, a proton), we will see that in an infinite universe, it is influenced by an infinite number of other objects, and therefore, we cannot obtain a specific cause with a specific effect.

or admit is this another subject wherein you are out of your depth and making stuff up?

 

[Olga]

Once again, you make a wild claim while providing zero support for it, and then just walk way.

And we know you know better:



So, care to elaborate on this:



or admit is this another subject wherein you are out of your depth and making stuff up?

Что тут непонятного, Дэйв? Вселенная - единая, взаимосвязанная система. В ней все на всех влияют. Сколько объектов влияет на любой, произвольно выбранный протон, например?

 

[DaveC426913]

What's so confusing, Dave? The universe is a single, interconnected system. Everything in it influences everything else.

OlgaMagic.

How many objects influence any given proton, for example?

Only objects within its lightcone, Olga.

The observable universe is less than 100 billion years across - that is big, but far, far less than infinite. Everything outisde our observable universe is causally disconnected from us forever. It can never have any cause or effect connection.


For pity's sake, stay in your lane.

 

[Olga]

OlgaMagic.


Only objects within its lightcone, Olga.

The observable universe is less than 100 billion years across - that is big, but far, far less than infinite. Everything outisde our observable universe is causally disconnected from us forever. It can never have any cause or effect connection.


For pity's sake, stay in your lane.

А на эти объекты влияют другие объекты, а на те следующие, и т.д.

Между теми объектами, которые находятся вне нашей видимости, существует гравитация. Так что мы всё равно в той, или иной степени связаны.

 

[Pinball1970]

It's much more than the brain. Real free will applies more to the incarnated being than its vehicle.

If it's not science based I cannot give answers on it, if it can't be tested it is not science.
Is free will science then?
I don't like the term if I'm honest, free will is just people making choices. Everyone does that, even slaves and prisoners, they just don't have the range of choices we have.
I can measure all of that quite happily.

 

[DaveC426913]

And these objects are influenced by other objects, and those by the next ones, and so on.

Gravity exists between objects beyond our visibility, so we are still connected to some degree.

No. This is a naive misunderstanding.

No influences - including gravity - can propagate faster than c. The objects outside our observable universe have no way of communicating, since any signals of any sort, including gravity, cannot reach here faster than those objects are receding.

That is what it means to be "causally disconnected" and "outside our light cone".

Google these terms and you may learn something. Read more, assert less.

 

[Olga]

No. This is a naive misunderstanding.

No influences - including gravity - can propagate faster than c. The objects outside our observable universe have no way of communicating, since any signals of any sort, including gravity, cannot reach here faster than those objects are receding.

That is what it means to be "causally disconnected" and "outside our light cone".

Google these terms and you may learn something. Read more, assert less.

Дэйв, гравитации не нужно распространяться, она уже есть. Гравитация постоянна, а следовательно, и связь между объектами, тоже. Вы путаете её с гравитационными волнами.

 

[DaveC426913]

Dave, gravity doesn't need to propagate; it already exists. Gravity is constant, and therefore the connection between objects is constant. You're confusing it with gravitational waves.

Yes gravity already exists. But it can't communicate faster than the speed of light. Which means objects at vast distances cannot indluence each other.

 

[Olga]

Yes gravity already exists. But it can't communicate faster than the speed of light. Which means objects at vast distances cannot indluence each other.

Зачем ей передаваться, Дэйв? Если где то взорвётся гравитационно связанная с другими объектами звезда, например, как быстро остальные связанные с ней объекты это почувствуют? Я сейчас не о гравитационных волнах говорю, а о гравитационной связи между объектами.