Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    MT can process (transport) data, MT can store data, MT can integrate and orchestrate data.
    Data is the result of sensory reaction producing a stream of data that is transported via microtubules, then compared to memories stored in the brain and "translated" by the brain into a recreation of the sensory data, i.e. an internal image of what the data originally represented. Apparently this evolutionary process resulted in an emergent data sensitivity that was causal to electrochemically elicited emotional experiences.

    Anil Seth identifies this "best guessing" by the brain as "controlled hallucinations". I hope you have watched his short but revelatory lecture. He clearly demonstrates how the brain learns and applies knowledge-based successful survival techniques.
    Yes! MT make exact copies of DNA via the mitotic spindle.

    https://www.ted.com/talks/drew_berry_animations_of_unseeable_biology?language=en#t-471663
    MT in plant leaf perform photosynthesis and distribution of energy.
    The Influence of Light on Microtubule Dynamics and Alignment in the Arabidopsis Hypocotyl[W]
    Adrian Sambade,a,1 Amitesh Pratap,b,1 Henrik Buschmann,a Richard J. Morris,b and Clive Lloyda,2
    Author information Article notes Copyright and License information Disclaimer
    This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

    ABSTRACT
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3289555/

    Roles of actin cytoskeleton for regulation of chloroplast anchoring
    Yuuki Sakai† and Shingo Takagi
    Author information Article notes Copyright and License information Disclaimer

    ABSTRACT
    Yes! MT are ion powered motors, that drive the flagella for one. This was one of the items in contention during the Kitzmiller v Dover trial. Behe tried to argue that the microtubule motor that drives cilia and flagella was n irreducibly complex organelle, which was debunked by several scientists and caused the judge to rule against the concept of Intelligent Design. That is how I was introduced to one of the many microtubules functions.

    Cilia, flagella, and centrioles


    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    Cilia and flagella are projections from the cell. They are made up of microtubules , as shown in this cartoon and are covered by an extension of the plasma membrane. They are motile and designed either to move the cell itself or to move substances over or around the cell. The primary purpose of cilia in mammalian cells is to move fluid, mucous, or cells over their surface. Cilia and flagella have the same internal structure. The major difference is in their length.

    http://cytochemistry.net/cell-biology/cilia.htm#
    How about now? If you want more? Just ask.......I love to share......

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2021
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    That is asking the "hard question" again. The "hard fact" is that mirror neurons do mirror observed behavior in others. Microtubules just do what they do in all neurons, transport sensory data.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2021
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    More on the microtubule motor

    Bacterial Flagella: Flagellar Motor

    Other versions of this article
    Nicolas J Delalez,
    First published: 15 August 2014

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    PDF

    Abstract
    Key Concepts:
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/9780470015902.a0000744.pub4#

    The dynein microtubule motor
    Stephen MKing

    Abstract
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167488900000094
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    To illustrate the complete motor assemblies of cilia and flagella;

    If you get the "Unavailable" message press "Watch on YouTube"


    and for good measure:
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2021
  8. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    39,237
    In what form is this "data" transported, stored, integrated and orchestrated?

    What kind of "data" is it?

    Note: saying something like "sensor data" doesn't help here. I understand (to some extent) how sensory organs like eyes and ears produce electrical signals in neurons, for instance. But those do not seem to be processed or transported in any way by microtubules, explicitly, as far as I'm aware. Nerve conduction is happening at a higher level of magnification than the insides of microtubules.

    So, what kind of "data" are you referring to.

    What is the physical form of the "data stream" you refer to?
    Explain how "raw" sensory inputs are translated into this microtubule "data stream".
    "The brain" is a much larger and more complex structure than a microtubule.

    What is your evidence that any "data" is "compared to memories" in microtubules? How does that "comparison" occur in the microtubule?

    What does a microtubule "translate" and how does it do it? What is the physical mechanism?
    Internal to what?

    Is it your claim that human memories are stored specifically in microtubules? Got any evidence for that, at all?
    What evolutionary process? This is your first mention of an evolutionary process.
     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    electrochemical
    electrochemical
    No, you are making a switch here. Nerve conduction is happening on the outside of the microtubules inside the neurons.

    Microtubules in neurons as information carriers - NCBI
    Are microtubules inside neurons?

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3979999/

    Microtubules – the critical highways of neurons – must stay “clear” for good traffic and neuronal survival

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    The excess of tubulin polyglutamylation perturbs transport in primary hippocampal neurons and causes extensive neurodegeneration in mice and humans.
    Researchers from Carsten Janke’s group from Institut Curie have recently published two articles of important relevance in the field of Neurobiology.

    “Scientists are amazed that microscopic materials can be transported more than several feet along one neuron that goes from the spinal cord to the foot. This is equivalent scale to a person carrying a package walking along the wall of China” 3.
    https://science.institut-curie.org/...clear-for-good-traffic-and-neuronal-survival/
    electrochemical.
    electrochemical
    This is not 'raw" data. It is received and transmitted by the sensors as sorted streams of "patterned" data.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    The first step in the process of vision is the conversion of light into signals that can be interpreted in the brain. This takes place in the retina, which is located in the back of the eye.
    https://www.allaboutvision.com/resources/retina.htm
    https://eyemantra.in/eye-care/anatomy-of-eye/
    Is a computer larger than a single processor? The microtubule network in the brain can be counted in the trillions, each with hundreds of dendrites and the synaptic connections in the brain number about 125 trillion.

    Stunning details of brain connections revealed
    Date: November 17, 2010
    Source: Stanford University Medical Center
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101117121803.htm#
    Discovery of quantum vibrations in 'microtubules' inside brain neurons supports controversial theory of consciousness
    Date: January 16, 2014
    Source: Elsevier
    Summary:
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140116085105.htm
    I don't know how it does that. I do believe that the memories are stored in "pyramidal neural sets of MT" via "phosphorylation".

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3297561/
    Cytoskeletal Signaling: Is Memory Encoded in Microtubule Lattices by CaMKII Phosphorylation?
    Travis J. A. Craddock, 1 , * Jack A. Tuszynski, 1 , 2 and Stuart Hameroff 3

    Abstract
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3297561/
    Internal in the brain.
    see above. Check out "pyramidal neurons", which contain clusters of connected MT in pyramidal form.
    The evolutionary process that selected greater sensory complexity and ability as a survival advantage (see the eye).

    I have posted these results of serious and diligent research several times now, but you keep asking me to explain it, instead of reading the findings of the actual researchers I quote, with links to the actual publication.

    Finally, you may want to peruse some of this extensive scientific assessment of the role microtubules play in the brain and indeed throughout the entire body.

    https://jonlieffmd.com/blog/are-microtubules-the-brain-of-the-neuron#
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2021
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    I think that was previously addressed ;

    Bundles of Brain Microtubules Generate Electrical Oscillations

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-30453-2

    Microtubules as Sub-Cellular Memristors
    Abstract
    Memristors
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-58820-y
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    What humans can do by intent, nature can do by evolution via natural selection, given enough time.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    The 2006 NASA ST5 spacecraft antenna. This complicated shape was found by an evolutionary computer design program to create the best radiation pattern. It is known as an evolved antenna.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithm

    How Does a Fractal Antenna Work?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    https://sites.google.com/site/fractalantennas/home/how-does-a-fractal-antenna-work

    Note that these shapes often appear in nature. How do they form?

    What are Fractals?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    They are created by repeating a simple process over and over in an ongoing feedback loop. Driven by recursion, fractals are images of dynamic systems – the pictures of Chaos. Geometrically, they exist in between our familiar dimensions. Fractal patterns are extremely familiar, since nature is full of fractals.

    http://xaos-project.github.io/XaoSjs/

    https://fractalfoundation.org/resources/what-are-fractals/#
     
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    The basic functions of a neuron
    If you think about the roles of the three classes of neurons, you can make the generalization that all neurons have three basic functions. These are to:
    1. Receive signals (or information).
    2. Integrate incoming signals (to determine whether or not the information should be passed along).
    3. Communicate signals to target cells (other neurons or muscles or glands).
    These neuronal functions are reflected in the anatomy of the neuron.

    This is an artificially created copper fractal antenna, which can receive and respond to a large range of wavelengths.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Note that this fractal copper antenna mimics the Purkinje cells in the brain.


    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    For instance, specialized neurons called Purkinje cells are found in a region of the brain known as the cerebellum. Purkinje cells have a highly complex dendritic tree that allows them to receive – and integrate – an enormous number of synaptic inputs, as shown above. Other types of neurons in the cerebellum can also be recognized by their distinctive shapes.
    [See a diagram of other cerebellum cell types]

    https://www.khanacademy.org/science...m/a/overview-of-neuron-structure-and-function
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    In furtherance to the request for evidence, this may clarify:

    Local and Global Dynamics of Dendritic Activity in the Pyramidal Neuron

    Highlights

    1. Discuss the origin of local and global calcium activity in cortical neurons.
    2. eview the difficulties and caveats of spatially defining dendritic activity.
    3. Reveal evidence in support of both local and global dendritic activity.
    4. Illustrate that both local and global dynamics define neural input–output function.

    Abstract

    Graphical abstract

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306452221003559
    A long-range, recurrent neuronal networklinking the emotion regionswith the somatic motor cortex
    Yihan Wang1,2and Qian-Quan Sun1,2,3,4,*1Graduate Neuroscience Program, University of Wyoming, Laramie, WY 82071, USA2Department of Zoology and Physiology, University of Wyoming, Laramie, WY 82071, USA3Wyoming Sensory Biology Center of Biomedical Research Excellence, University of Wyoming, Laramie, WY 82071, USA

    SUMMARY

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    https://reader.elsevier.com/reader/...egion=eu-west-1&originCreation=20211003163531
     
  14. river

    Messages:
    17,307
    What is your point Write4U , what are you saying ?
     
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    I am agreeing with Tegmark and Hameroff that consciousness is an emergent excellence only from inherent physical attributes which all biological forms already possess in various evolutionary stages.

    Hameroff and many scientists now confirm that microtubules are biochemical processors of biochemical data.

    From plants, to most protists, to all modern Eukaryotic organisms, the microtubule (neural) dynamical information processing network appears to acquire an emergent chemically reactive experience that has evolved into "conscious sentience" at various levels of awareness. And even as in specialized unconscious states such as in the homeostatic "control" of bodily functions in harmony with symbiotic bacterial participation.

    Tegmark, and many scientists now confirm a mathematical aspect to all universal expressions and that consciousness is an emergent property of specific neural patterns and processing mechanisms.

    Hameroff and Tegmark only disagreed on the potential quantum aspects proposed by Hameroff and Penrose.
    I believe that several conceptual conflicts have been resolved in favor of the fundamental ORCH OR concept.

    I believe IIT (Giulio Tononi) is a proposal along similar lines.

    Integrated information theory

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Phi, the symbol used for integrated information
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_information_theory
     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    I have been thinking about your well-meant observation that I am cherry-picking the information that suits my understanding and interpretation.

    I totally agree. The reason is that there is only a cherry-tree with low hanging fruit.

    When I ask for a counter argument that debunks my perspective, the answer is always that the burden of proof lies with me, and I agree.

    The problem is that there are no alternative concepts or theories to be found anywhere. My cherries are the only marketable product available......

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    This may be of interest;


    Note that at 54:00 the artificial construct of measuring brain activity, employs a "coil", a big model of a microtubule.

    Now imagine 175 billion of these functioning sensory data processors in a connected network. AI ?

    How big is GPT-3?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPT-3

    It beat the world champion GO player convincingly, by "learning" to play the game from a lot of recorded games and finally by playing what it learned against itself and spontaneously gaining a masterclass knowledge of the game.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2021
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    This may provide a generalized explanation of Anil Seth's use of the term "controlled hallucination" as a specific evolved survival mechanism that fools the brain into an optical illusion which is beneficial in detecting "camouflaged" predators.

    Psychophysics

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    more.....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychophysics
     
  19. river

    Messages:
    17,307
    So the mind controls the brain .
     
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    In the Future, We'll Use Glowing Plants as Lamps
    Say hello to a legitimately green form of energy.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    Nanoparticles injected under the plants' skin can cause them to glow. After charging with light, the plants can glow and recharge indefinitely.
    https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/green-tech/a37887181/glowing-plant-lamp-light-source/

    Continued .......
     
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    continued.....

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    Figure 5. Changes in Guard Cell Microtubule Structure Number on Stomatal Closing in Darkness and Opening in Light. Numbers of microtubule structures in guard cells and stomatal aperture both decline significantly in darkness following transfer to darkness from the greenhouse, but are restored with subsequent white light treatment (1 h, 100 lmol photons m2 s 1 ). The dark leaf samples were photographed at the end of the dark period then illuminated and used as the 1-h light samples (n = 6). Error bars are standard deviations. Bar = 10 microns

    RESULTS
    more..........
    https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Guard-Cell_Function_in_Vicia_and_Arabidopsis
     
  22. river

    Messages:
    17,307
    Explain to us all , what this all means , Write4U . What are your thoughts .
     
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,970
    I am trying to demonstrate the incredible utility microtubules have in all forms of life.

    Clearly, the cytoskeleton is the primary substrate for all dynamic data processing functions in Eukaryotic biology. Plus the fact that brained animals have heavy concentrations of microtubules in brains and neural systems strongly suggests that they are the primary candidate for also being the substrate that yields emergent consciousness.

    Most important of all MT is a self-organizing organelle (from just 2 tubulins) and is a "common denominator" in all Eukaryotic biology which must have been a "foundational genetic building block" in the abiogenetic emergence of life itself.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2021
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page