Iraqi Shias protest against US troops

[GeoffP]

TAnd like I said, the Jews were leaving in droves for the enlightened West. Now they have Palestine, they are certainly proving how they deal with their problems, aren't they?

Ah! So the treatment of them as second-class citizens during the "Fool's Golden Age" was correct, then? Got to keep those Lizardoids down.

And like I said: the fact that the Jews didn't leave was probably since they couldn't leave, as they formed part of the tax base for dar-al-islam. Do you simply let a good cow wander out the door? No - you extract from him his payment protection "with both hands". Sura 9 would be a good place to start your education.

 

[S.A.M.]

I thought we were talking about the "Islamic Golden Age", sam? Except that it wasn't so golden after all.

Dross. Iron pyrite: A "Fool's Golden Age".

Well its the Western Golden Age now, isn't it? Jews in the Holocaust and Iraq and Afghanistan are the products of the enlightened Western culture.

We've never had it so good, eh?

 

[S.A.M.]

Ah! So the treatment of them as second-class citizens during the "Fool's Golden Age" was correct, then? Got to keep those Lizardoids down.

And like I said: the fact that the Jews didn't leave was probably since they couldn't leave, as they formed part of the tax base for dar-al-islam. Do you simply let a good cow wander out the door? No - you extract from him his payment protection "with both hands". Sura 9 would be a good place to start your education.

Of course they were milked for their money, which is why they were allowed to maintain their separate culture and religion. It was all a deep dark plan for corporate profit.

Like the Middle East of today.

 

[GeoffP]

No, because Western culture provides rights to the individual. So the Holocaust isn't part of Western culture, but a denial of same. Sorry. Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

Western culture has developed many themes and traditions. Some important ones are:

Christian Theology and Philosophy, with an abundant tradition on the philosophical discipline of Ethics.
Humanism, Secularism, Rationalism and Empiricism in contrast and reaction to Catholicism and Protestant Christianity.
A very rich tradition and understanding of law, which has been followed by practically all other cultures.
Scholasticism.
Renaissance arts and letters.
Scientific method.
The Western canon.
The Enlightenment and the Age of Reason.

But, again, we were discussing the "Fool's Golden Age".

 

[GeoffP]

Of course they were milked for their money, which is why they were allowed to maintain their separate culture and religion. It was all a deep dark plan for corporate profit.

Well, I'm afraid so. I think we can dispense with the nonsense of it being a "Golden Age" for non-muslims, then. Glad to see some concurrence here, for once.

Like the Middle East of today.

Possibly. I don't support it: in fact, if it's going on, I deplore it. Whose profit, and whose responsibility is it?

You seem to feel - via your tu tuoque argumentation - that "what goes around comes around". Do you feel it applies in this case? Why or why not?

 

[S.A.M.]

No, because Western culture provides rights to the individual. So the Holocaust isn't part of Western culture, but a denial of same. Sorry. Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture



But, again, we were discussing the "Fool's Golden Age".

Islam too provides for religious tolerance. So religious intolerance is a denial of Islam

And the war in Iraq is to liberate the Iraqis but we don't do body counts.

Blah blah

 

[S.A.M.]

No, because Western culture provides rights to the individual. So the Holocaust isn't part of Western culture, but a denial of same. Sorry. Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture



But, again, we were discussing the "Fool's Golden Age".

Sorry all those values actually came from Islam.

See Mohammed's speech on equality of all men, the status of women in Quran

Also the scientific method:

The modern scientific method was first developed in the Muslim world, where significant progress in methodology was made, especially in the works of Alhazen in the 11th century.[1] The most important development of the scientific method was the use of experiments to distinguish between competing scientific theories set within a generally empirical orientation.

The prominent Muslim scientist Ibn Al-Haitham (Alhazen) used the scientific method to obtain the results in his book Optics. In particular, he performed experiments and used the scientific method to show that the intromission theory of vision supported by Aristotle was scientifically correct, and that the emission theory of vision supported by Ptolemy and Euclid was wrong. It is known that Roger Bacon (who is usually erroneously given the credit for having founded the scientific method) was familiar with Ibn Al-Haitham's work

.

See, Muslim contribution to "Western culture".

 

[GeoffP]

Islam too provides for religious tolerance. So religious intolerance is a denial of Islam

Not the way Q 2: 256 gets read. Or perhaps you could show me in which islamic state apostacy is legal?

Also: I do so love to throw gasoline on a fire. Maybe you could explain the following link to me in context of a properly islamic nation like Pakistan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_atrocities

 

[GeoffP]

Sorry all those values actually came from Islam.

Heh. Do you mean from the Greeks transmitted through islam? Then I agree. However, islam as a political entity threw those off with "Incoherence of the Philosophers", as I recall.

See Mohammed's speech on equality of all men, the status of women in Quran

Women receive a disproportional share of wealth and may be beaten. Yes, I think I've read that part. Also the part where infidels are to be killed or converted or subjugated which, being last, abrogates the earlier messages. Yes, yes, I know of his works in this area. Look, if you want to worship him, that's fine, but you should mark his mistakes and modify your outlook accordingly. I assume you're doing that, so all should probably be well.

 

[GeoffP]

And now, as I said: if you'll excuse me, I think you're argued yourself silly and I have other evil to do today.

Best regards,

Geoff

 

[S.A.M.]

Not the way Q 2: 256 gets read. Or perhaps you could show me in which islamic state apostacy is legal?

Also: I do so love to throw gasoline on a fire. Maybe you could explain the following link to me in context of a properly islamic nation like Pakistan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_atrocities

More balderdash. Bangladesh is a political problem, not a religious one.

 

[S.A.M.]

Heh. Do you mean from the Greeks transmitted through islam? Then I agree. However, islam as a political entity threw those off with "Incoherence of the Philosophers", as I recall.



Women receive a disproportional share of wealth and may be beaten. Yes, I think I've read that part. Also the part where infidels are to be killed or converted or subjugated which, being last, abrogates the earlier messages. Yes, yes, I know of his works in this area. Look, if you want to worship him, that's fine, but you should mark his mistakes and modify your outlook accordingly. I assume you're doing that, so all should probably be well.

Your ignorance is boundless.

 

[GeoffP]

More balderdash. Bangladesh is a political problem, not a religious one.

The war is political, not religious? Of course. I must have been confused by the following excerpts from the link I posted that you didn't read:

The Pakistan Army and its local collaborators, mainly including the Al-Shams and Al-Badr forces, carried out systematic executions of Hindu minorities and leading Bengali intellectuals.[3][4] At the onset of the Bengali nationalist rebellion led by the Awami League, Pakistani forces targeted Hindus, Bengali intellectuals, students and political activists, especially at college campuses in the capital Dhaka and other cities.[5] During the first few days of the war, a number of university professors from Dhaka University were killed.[6] There was widespread killing of Hindu males, as well as other atrocities such as rapes and lootings.[citation needed] A smaller number of non-Bengali citizens were also killed in clashes with the Mukti Bahini.[citation needed]

The most extreme cases of targeted killing of intellectuals took place during the last few days of the war. Allegedly, the leaders of Jamaat-e-Islami and its paramilitary arm, the Al-Badr and Al-Shams forces created a list of doctors, teachers, poets, and scholars.[7] Some sources also allege the role of the CIA in devising the plan.[8] On December 14, 1971, only two days before surrendering to the Indian military and the Mukhti Bahini forces, the Pakistani army, with the assistance of local Islamist leaders and groups that chose to ally themselves with the Pakistani military and most notably the Al-Badr and Al-Shams systematically executed well over 200 of East Pakistan's intellectuals and scholars. Professors, journalists, doctors, artists, engineers, writers were rounded up in Dhaka, blindfolded, taken to Rajarbag in the middle section of the city, and executed en masse. In memory of this event, December 14 is mourned in Bangladesh as Buddhijibi Hotta Dibosh ("Day of Martyred Intellectuals"),[9][10][11] and the Government of Bangladesh has constructed a memorial in Mirpur.

According to a report by TIME magazine, "The Hindus, who account for three-fourths of the refugees and a majority of the dead, have borne the brunt of the Muslim military hatred."[12] More than 60% of the Bengali refugees that had fled to India were Hindus.[13] However, it is unknown exactly what percentage of the people killed by the Pakistan army were Hindu.[14]

There are many mass graves in Bangladesh, with new ones being frequently discovered. For instance, a mass grave was discovered in August 1999 in an old well near a mosque in Dhaka located in the non-Bengali region of the city.[15]

Motivations
This violence against Hindus was motivated by a policy to purge East Pakistan of what was seen as Hindu and Indian influences. The West Pakistani rulers confounded the Bengali culture with Hindu and Indian culture, believing that the eradication of Hindus would remove such influences from the majority Muslims in East Pakistan.[16] From The Sunday Times, June 13, 1971:

The Government's policy for East Bengal was spelled out to me in the Eastern Command headquarters at Dacca. It has three elements: 1. The Bengalis have proved themselves unreliable and must be ruled by West Pakistanis; 2. The Bengalis will have to be re-educated along proper Islamic lines. The - Islamization of the masses - this is the official jargon - is intended to eliminate secessionist tendencies and provide a strong religious bond with West Pakistan; 3. When the Hindus have been eliminated by death and fight, their property will be used as a golden carrot to win over the under privileged Muslim middle-class. This will provide the base for erecting administrative and political structures in the future.

Yes. A political conflict.

Islam is at least much political as it is religious, if not more.

Your ignorance is boundless.

Rather, my understanding, and your ad hominem.

Best,

Geoff

 

[Michael]

Sure, which is why Islam ushered in the Golden Age for Arabia. Obviously most people wanted a better life.

Really? When did the "Golden Age" occur? What constitutes this Golden Age? Here, I'll be specific:
What discoveries were made?
What Athletic sports were developed?
What sculpture techniques were developed?
What monuments were constructed?
What plays were written?
What saga's were written?
What maths were invented?
What new philosophies were developed - what was new about them?

Exactly what did Islam usher in?


Something else to think about. A Chinese census shows that after the Mongolians defeated the Chinese there was a drop in population of around 50% (80% in Western China). Following their utter destruction China entered a "Golden Age". Please tell me that the Arab Golden Age you a referring to is not AFTER the conquest of Persia???!!!! Because if that is so then it really has as much to do with Islam as the Chinese Golden Age has to do with Islam. Absolutely nothing. Also something to consider, the post-Persian-annihilation "Golden Age" that followed the Arab aggressive attack and conquest of Persia heralded the first cultural collapse in China due to the closer of the prosperous trade routes with Europe. Just something else to think about. So, I am assuming by Golden Age ushered IN by ISLAM you mean BEFORE the nomadic herdsmen from Arabia attacked and conquered the then weakened Persian Empire?
RIGHT??
You of course are talking about BEFORE THAT ATROCITY?
Correct?????

Anyway, also, about that Golden Age....

1) Was Slavery Abolished or Institutionalized?
2) Were women equal to men or not equal?
3) Was polygamy discouraged or supported?
4) Were non-Muslims equal in all ways or not?

Thats unrealistic.

Exactly! That's why the notion of an omnipotent God is flawed. For an "omnipotent God" NOTHING is UNREALISTIC as ALL is within Its power to do and do so with easy.

DO WITH EASE .. .. .. ANYTHING AT ALL.

(right about now the rational side of your brain is, for some interesting reasons, being completely overwhelmed by the irrational side that believes in an ALL POWER can do ANYTHING God and is quickly moving to the next text down below, itself assured there is some good reason why God is ALL POWERFUL and can DO ANYTHING and yet CAN NOT DO SOMETHING? well actually cannot do many things... but anyway... the following text says something that can take my logical mind off this conundrum ......

And the Renaissance was a result of the Islamic Age, the Europeans destroyed all the works which the Arabs preserved, remember?

Actually there were many many many Greek works preserved in Roma. Not to say that the Persians, who happened to be Islamic, didn't slightly, make some headway in 1000 years. That is to be expected. YET, it's sad really that even after 1000 years of "preserving" Greek and Roman philosophy it was NOT the discovery of Islamic science but the rediscovery of the nearly 2000 year old polytheistic Greek philosophy that helped kick start Europe. That and the fact that monotheism was finally being shown the door.


Don't you find that ironic in your very own witting?

"the [European] Renaissance was a result of ... the [polytheistic Greek] works which the Arabs preserved."


Which is to say after 1000 years people within in the Islamic Empire had made so little advancement (but yes some) that it was the rediscovery of works almost 2000 years older that you are referring to.


Funny Huh?


That isn't to say that some small advances weren't made in the Islamic empires. Just not as advanced and noteworthy as the advancements made by the polytheistic Greek and Roman Europeans.. In a sense it was the rediscovery of their own advancements.

Islam too provides for religious tolerance. So religious intolerance is a denial of Islam

:bugeye:

What does the Qur'an say of people who practice POLYTHEISM?
Does it support their personal beleif and encourage them or does it condemn their personal believe and culture as against God?

WELL? Tell me about this tolerance you are referring to.

What did Islamic people do to Arabs that were POLYTHEISTS?

See Mohammed's speech on equality of all men, the status of women in Quran

Also the scientific method:
.

See, Muslim contribution to "Western culture".

1) Are women equal to men in all ways?

2) What is the exact reference in the Qur'an that states the Scientific method?

3) Yes People of the old Persian Empire made some small advancement but their real contribution was in that they saved some old European literature. Although much more was saved in Roma. Again it was the downfall of monotheism that allowed for Europeans to rediscover their polytheistic heritage.

Michael

 

[GeoffP]

I think you could argue that the polygamy thing is sort of moral-neutral. Not totally sure about that one. I mean, it is kind of androcentric/misogynistic, I suppose. Anyway, there's not much one could say to argue against the rest.

 

[Michael]

How can one be proud of the destruction of Persia as an "Arab" Golden Age - yea for Arabs! and then think it's wrong for America to attack Iraq? What if American steals all the oil and it ushers in a Super Golden Age - for Americans. Perhaps Sam's descendants, now Protestant-Xians, may say, Gee those were really the good times back in the 2000s, yes sir, the American Golden Age...

 

[S.A.M.]

Blah blah blah

Michael

Unbelievable

So you believe that Muslims travelled the world and researched Sanskrit, Greek and Chinese philosophy, science and medicine and still believe they destroyed the Persian culture? That they spent a thousand years studying these subjects and contributed nothing?

I give up.

blah blah blah

Ignorance is bliss and prejudice more potent than rationality.

 

[Dan the Man84]

Really? When did the "Golden Age" occur? What constitutes this Golden Age? Here, I'll be specific:
What discoveries were made?
What Athletic sports were developed?
What sculpture techniques were developed?
What monuments were constructed?
What plays were written?
What saga's were written?
What maths were invented?
What new philosophies were developed - what was new about them?

Exactly what did Islam usher in?


Something else to think about. A Chinese census shows that after the Mongolians defeated the Chinese there was a drop in population of around 50% (80% in Western China). Following their utter destruction China entered a "Golden Age". Please tell me that the Arab Golden Age you a referring to is not AFTER the conquest of Persia???!!!! Because if that is so then it really has as much to do with Islam as the Chinese Golden Age has to do with Islam. Absolutely nothing. Also something to consider, the post-Persian-annihilation "Golden Age" that followed the Arab aggressive attack and conquest of Persia heralded the first cultural collapse in China due to the closer of the prosperous trade routes with Europe. Just something else to think about. So, I am assuming by Golden Age ushered IN by ISLAM you mean BEFORE the nomadic herdsmen from Arabia attacked and conquered the then weakened Persian Empire?
RIGHT??
You of course are talking about BEFORE THAT ATROCITY?
Correct?????

Anyway, also, about that Golden Age....

1) Was Slavery Abolished or Institutionalized?
2) Were women equal to men or not equal?
3) Was polygamy discouraged or supported?
4) Were non-Muslims equal in all ways or not?

Exactly! That's why the notion of an omnipotent God is flawed. For an "omnipotent God" NOTHING is UNREALISTIC as ALL is within Its power to do and do so with easy.

DO WITH EASE .. .. .. ANYTHING AT ALL.

(right about now the rational side of your brain is, for some interesting reasons, being completely overwhelmed by the irrational side that believes in an ALL POWER can do ANYTHING God and is quickly moving to the next text down below, itself assured there is some good reason why God is ALL POWERFUL and can DO ANYTHING and yet CAN NOT DO SOMETHING? well actually cannot do many things... but anyway... the following text says something that can take my logical mind off this conundrum ......

Actually there were many many many Greek works preserved in Roma. Not to say that the Persians, who happened to be Islamic, didn't slightly, make some headway in 1000 years. That is to be expected. YET, it's sad really that even after 1000 years of "preserving" Greek and Roman philosophy it was NOT the discovery of Islamic science but the rediscovery of the nearly 2000 year old polytheistic Greek philosophy that helped kick start Europe. That and the fact that monotheism was finally being shown the door.


Don't you find that ironic in your very own witting?

"the [European] Renaissance was a result of ... the [polytheistic Greek] works which the Arabs preserved."


Which is to say after 1000 years people within in the Islamic Empire had made so little advancement (but yes some) that it was the rediscovery of works almost 2000 years older that you are referring to.


Funny Huh?


That isn't to say that some small advances weren't made in the Islamic empires. Just not as advanced and noteworthy as the advancements made by the polytheistic Greek and Roman Europeans.. In a sense it was the rediscovery of their own advancements.

:bugeye:

What does the Qur'an say of people who practice POLYTHEISM?
Does it support their personal beleif and encourage them or does it condemn their personal believe and culture as against God?

WELL? Tell me about this tolerance you are referring to.

What did Islamic people do to Arabs that were POLYTHEISTS?

1) Are women equal to men in all ways?

2) What is the exact reference in the Qur'an that states the Scientific method?

3) Yes People of the old Persian Empire made some small advancement but their real contribution was in that they saved some old European literature. Although much more was saved in Roma. Again it was the downfall of monotheism that allowed for Europeans to rediscover their polytheistic heritage.

Michael

powerful points, especially about the "religious tolerance" islam claims it has...but didn't Mohammed kill all those who refused to become Muslims in the 600s, lmao.

 

[Michael]

Unbelievable

So you believe that Muslims travelled the world and researched Sanskrit, Greek and Chinese philosophy, science and medicine and still believe they destroyed the Persian culture? That they spent a thousand years studying these subjects and contributed nothing?

I give up.

I said they made some advancements. Yet, engineering wasn't as advanced as the Greeks. Nothing was until the late 1700s and that was in Europe. Was math? No, Archimedes discovered the ideas underpinning calculus. Did the Muslims repeat this? No. It was the Europeans that rediscovered this completely. Did the Muslims create better sculpture than the Greeks? No. As a matter of fact today we can not replicate the Greek Bronzes found off Greek a few years ago - no one knows how the hell they made them. The coating that has protected the Parthenon was only discovered using mass spec a few years ago. It was superior to ANYTHING invented to protect marble EVEN today.

So, yes, I expect that as the Egyptians, Greeks and Romans could do all this from NOTHING, from the ground up so to speak, that the Muslims, having simple co-opted ALL of this information, should have had a seriously advanced state of sciences.

SERIOUSLY advanced state.

Did they?

IMHO it doesn't seem like it No.

Did they discover electricity? Calculus? DNA? Travel to the moon? Invent a computer (the Greeks invented the first computer in 400BCE by the way)

I am not Greek. I am not tooting my own horn. I'm simply relying the History I know of. Yes, it seemed Muslims do make small stepwise advancements - just as people in the ME had been making for 1000 years before Islam. They didn't make the HUGE advancement's. THAT for some reason (getting rid of monotheism and using the Scientific Method) was done by the Europeans.


BUT, again perhaps my head is shoved so far up my arse I can not see light? Please, instead of getting mad, simply enlighten me on the subject.

I'm happy to listen.


Also, I asked specifically Was the ARAB Golden Age you were referring to POST- Persian conquests? Because Sam I can promise you that the Persians have a completely different take on the ARAB Golden Age you refer to.

Also, I gave the example of China to try and illustrate this point.

It's like saying Gee those North Americans really were so lucky they got conquered by the Europeans - why look at the Christian "European" Golden Age those Native Americans got to live through...


Michael

Look the weekends coming up, lately I like to study Chinese but I'd be happy to look up the VERY top improvements for humanity done by the "Arabs" in the , as you called it, the Arab Golden Age:


1) The VERY Top Arab discovery made?
2) The best Arab Athletic sport developed?
3) The top Arab sculpture technique developed?
4) The best Arab engineering feat accomplished?
5) The biggest Arab advancemnt in Medicine?
6) The best peice of literature (Arabian Nights?)
7) The classical Operas written (who is the Arab Mozart of the ME)?
8) The best plays written (who was the Arab Shakespeare of the ME?
9) The top Mathematical advancement (who was the Arab Newton of the ME)?
10) The New novel Philosophy? (Who was Plato, Socrates, Aristotle)?


I'd be happy to spend some time reading up on each.
Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

I said they made some advancements. Yet, engineering wasn't as advanced as the Greeks. Nothing was until the late 1700s and that was in Europe. Was math? No, Archimedes discovered the ideas underpinning calculus. Did the Muslims repeat this? No. It was the Europeans that rediscovered this completely. Did the Muslims create better sculpture than the Greeks? No. As a matter of fact today we can not replicate the Greek Bronzes found off Greek a few years ago - no one knows how the hell they made them. The coating that has protected the Parthenon was only discovered using mass spec a few years ago. It was superior to ANYTHING invented to protect marble EVEN today.

So, yes, I expect that as the Egyptians, Greeks and Romans could do all this from NOTHING, from the ground up so to speak, that the Muslims, having simple co-opted ALL of this information, should have had a seriously advanced state of sciences.

SERIOUSLY advanced state.

Did they?

IMHO it doesn't seem like it No.

Did they discover electricity? Calculus? DNA? Travel to the moon? Invent a computer (the Greeks invented the first computer in 400BCE by the way)

I am not Greek. I am not tooting my own horn. I'm simply relying the History I know of. Yes, it seemed Muslims do make small stepwise advancements - just as people in the ME had been making for 1000 years before Islam. They didn't make the HUGE advancement's. THAT for some reason (getting rid of monotheism and using the Scientific Method) was done by the Europeans.


BUT, again perhaps my head is shoved so far up my arse I can not see light? Please, instead of getting mad, simply enlighten me on the subject.

I'm happy to listen.


Also, I asked specifically Was the ARAB Golden Age you were referring to POST- Persian conquests? Because Sam I can promise you that the Persians have a completely different take on the ARAB Golden Age you refer to.

Also, I gave the example of China to try and illustrate this point.

It's like saying Gee those North Americans really were so lucky they got conquered by the Europeans - why look at the Christian "European" Golden Age those Native Americans got to live through...


Michael

Look the weekends coming up, lately I like to study Chinese but I'd be happy to look up the VERY top improvements for humanity done by the "Arabs" in the , as you called it, the Arab Golden Age:


1) The VERY Top Arab discovery made?
2) The best Arab Athletic sport developed?
3) The top Arab sculpture technique developed?
4) The best Arab engineering feat accomplished?
5) The biggest Arab advancemnt in Medicine?
6) The best peice of literature (Arabian Nights?)
7) The classical Operas written (who is the Arab Mozart of the ME)?
8) The best plays written (who was the Arab Shakespeare of the ME?
9) The top Mathematical advancement (who was the Arab Newton of the ME)?
10) The New novel Philosophy? (Who was Plato, Socrates, Aristotle)?


I'd be happy to spend some time reading up on each.
Michael

Its the Islamic Golden Age and as I said the Persians contributed to it substantially. If you are really interested in learning not merely reinforcing your prejudices, keep an open mind.

Persian Islam was the one that was spread to the world, they never became Arabs, not even when they were Sunni Muslims almost 800 years.