Interstellar Communication
- Thread starter kmguru
- Start date
Light is to daggum slow. Who wants to wait 4 years to recieve a close transmission? Scifi has the neat little invention of hyperspatical transmitter/reciever. It is truely beyond us to understand the principals and practical methods to build such at present. But what would be some ideas on such? How could we speed up the tranismission/reception cycle to make it useful?
Did someone ask for theory ? 
Hi kmguru, wet1,
As far as theory is concerned, lightspeed is the fastest possible way to transmit information over a given distance. So if that is too slow for you, there are two options:
Perhaps you could use some not-too-well documented effect from one of the theories at hand. For example: quantum tunneling. Recent measurements indicate that particles seem to tunnel barriers at speeds exceeding the speed of light. I do not believe this experiment has been verified, but perhaps its usuably somehow.
So it seems we're stuck with lightspeed just for a few decades now.
Bye!
Crisp
Hi kmguru, wet1,
As far as theory is concerned, lightspeed is the fastest possible way to transmit information over a given distance. So if that is too slow for you, there are two options:
- Either you shorten the distance the information has to travel. There are plenty of theories ranging from wormholes, warping of spacetime, ... to shorten distances in space, but they are rather hypothetical.
- Or you resort to FTL particles such as tachyons, which are even more hypothetical and above all, now generally assumed not to exist.
Perhaps you could use some not-too-well documented effect from one of the theories at hand. For example: quantum tunneling. Recent measurements indicate that particles seem to tunnel barriers at speeds exceeding the speed of light. I do not believe this experiment has been verified, but perhaps its usuably somehow.
So it seems we're stuck with lightspeed just for a few decades now.
Bye!
Crisp
Last edited:
kmguru
Staff member
Hi Crisp:
Well if we can not use photons to communicate (because it is too slow). We may be able to piggyback someother particle (gluon or boson or ?) that can appear to travel FTL after getting a boost from the photons namely lasers.
Another way could be to make a microscopic tunnel in space to bridge the otherside (is it same as quantum tunneling?).
Can the string theory help in our quest?
Well if we can not use photons to communicate (because it is too slow). We may be able to piggyback someother particle (gluon or boson or ?) that can appear to travel FTL after getting a boost from the photons namely lasers.
Another way could be to make a microscopic tunnel in space to bridge the otherside (is it same as quantum tunneling?).
Can the string theory help in our quest?
Yuu have hit on something I believe to be a new use. I have heard everywhere about trying to use it for a busline to get from A to B, but I have heard no one come up with the idea of using it for the long distance phone call (E.T. phoning home).
If I usderstand the theory correctly, the string is not that large in cross section. There is also the idea that a string crossing another causes a disconnection, which turns into a closed loop. So if you message got hung into a loop it would not arrive where it was intended, but would rather be like a lost postal item, hung in limbo. If the loop idea is valid, it means that there are not that many strings out there. The estimate that sticks to mind was 10 for some reason. I'm sure that Crisp probably has some up to date info on the theory. (If you could be so kind to supply a link or info)
If I usderstand the theory correctly, the string is not that large in cross section. There is also the idea that a string crossing another causes a disconnection, which turns into a closed loop. So if you message got hung into a loop it would not arrive where it was intended, but would rather be like a lost postal item, hung in limbo. If the loop idea is valid, it means that there are not that many strings out there. The estimate that sticks to mind was 10 for some reason. I'm sure that Crisp probably has some up to date info on the theory. (If you could be so kind to supply a link or info)
kmguru
Staff member
I have a gut feeling, the major components for an interstellar telephone device are as follows:
Super cold generator (In deep space it is coooold)
Magnetic generator (a coil)
Super conductor
Laser generator
Pure element from the periodic chart
An alloy with some special properties
A capacitor bank for high power short duration
(we may need a plasma generator but I do'nt think so)
Then we are ready to go:
Super cold generator (In deep space it is coooold)
Magnetic generator (a coil)
Super conductor
Laser generator
Pure element from the periodic chart
An alloy with some special properties
A capacitor bank for high power short duration
(we may need a plasma generator but I do'nt think so)
Then we are ready to go:
Considering that the effect of gravity is considered by some to be almost instantaneous, like on the order of a billion times faster than light, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the possibility of using it, or an aspect, to communicate vast distances.
Gravity communications
I had indeed considered gravity before the post. I felt that not enough was known on how to make the changes to effect a message of any sort at present. Though what we discuss here is in the realm of what if and gravity communications certainly falls under that category. We do know of it's effects but not know to generate such other than by assembling a mass or by using a already assembled (conveniently I might add) mass. So how do we effect a mass sufficiently to generate the changes needed to make a message known?
I had indeed considered gravity before the post. I felt that not enough was known on how to make the changes to effect a message of any sort at present. Though what we discuss here is in the realm of what if and gravity communications certainly falls under that category. We do know of it's effects but not know to generate such other than by assembling a mass or by using a already assembled (conveniently I might add) mass. So how do we effect a mass sufficiently to generate the changes needed to make a message known?
Last edited:
kmguru
Staff member
While I was kidding around on this topic, in a moment of clarity, I came to the following understanding:
The technology I propose works like this: The stream carries charged particles that is accelarated to light speed when piggybacked to the photon stream. Because the stream configuration is EM in nature, when enough energy is applied, it tunnels the space at the atomic level. Not all particles will tunnel the space but some will. Those atoms which are travelling in the tunnel eventually loose their energy level and drop out of the tunnel to normal space. To control the distance we may have to control the applied energy.
To test the theory, the following test should be rigged. An ordinary detector should be designed and tested first and carried on a probe and sent with a scheduled probe out of our planet. The time differential must be more than atleast 4 to 5 minutes of normal space communication.
Then from ground we can send a data pulse to the detector and receive the result on normal telemetry. The reason is that, on ground, the transmitter will be the size of a house. So it is one way high speed communication. Testing on earth with a receiver will not work because the distance is too short.
The only thing I have not figured out is how do you aim the transmitter to the receiver plate since aiming in normal space may not work. Any ideas how to solve this problem?
If anyone tries to patent this, I will really be pissed. It is now in public domain for all mankind.
The technology I propose works like this: The stream carries charged particles that is accelarated to light speed when piggybacked to the photon stream. Because the stream configuration is EM in nature, when enough energy is applied, it tunnels the space at the atomic level. Not all particles will tunnel the space but some will. Those atoms which are travelling in the tunnel eventually loose their energy level and drop out of the tunnel to normal space. To control the distance we may have to control the applied energy.
To test the theory, the following test should be rigged. An ordinary detector should be designed and tested first and carried on a probe and sent with a scheduled probe out of our planet. The time differential must be more than atleast 4 to 5 minutes of normal space communication.
Then from ground we can send a data pulse to the detector and receive the result on normal telemetry. The reason is that, on ground, the transmitter will be the size of a house. So it is one way high speed communication. Testing on earth with a receiver will not work because the distance is too short.
The only thing I have not figured out is how do you aim the transmitter to the receiver plate since aiming in normal space may not work. Any ideas how to solve this problem?
If anyone tries to patent this, I will really be pissed. It is now in public domain for all mankind.
String theory ? Why would you need that ?
Hi everybody,
Wow, I've been gone for a couple of days and all of the sudden there are like 100 messages to catch up. Neat.
Okay, some thoughts:
Kmguru said:
The problem with other particles is that they are forced to travel in "empty space" at speeds not exceeding the speed of light. Gluons are particles that "glue" quarks together, and they have not been verified to exist separately (quarks and gluons always recombine to form couples of quark/antiquark to form a meson particle type, or 3 quarks couple to form a hadron particle type). A boson is a general classification type for particles: we divide all known particles in two categories: bosons and fermions, depending on spin. It's not a particle itself.
Quantum tunneling is a phenomenon were a particle leaks through what is called a "potential barrier". For example: an alpha particle (2 protons + 2 neutrons) can leak out of a nucleus to emit alpha-radiation. Or, if you shoot a particle at a wall, it can leak through the wall (quantum mechanics predicts that if you throw a ball at a wall, there's a slight possibility that the ball will go straight through it... However, the probability is very small). Quantum tunneling is hence the phenomenon that a particle passes an obstacle it normally can't pass; it seems that the particle found a "tunnel" connecting the two opposite sides of the barrier, making it possible for the particle to pass the barrier (while it normally can't, because it hasn't got enough energy).
The reason why I mentioned quantum tunneling is that experiments and calculations suggest that particles pass a barrier faster than the speed of light (it's a little more complicated than this, since there speed for a particle is not always speed as we think it is).
Practically speaking, I don't think you can use quantumtunneling for interstellar communication, because:
About string theory: I am not familiar with the theory, but I do know that it is still very hypothetical. There have been a couple of experiments that can be explained if you assume string theory, but personally I think there's just not enough evidence to support string theory yet.
Links on quantum tunneling:
http://www.aei-potsdam.mpg.de/~mpoessel/Physik/FTL/tunnelingftl.html
Extensive list of literature on the subject. Technical.
http://www.biols.susx.ac.uk/home/John_Gribbin/quantum.htm#Photons
Basic explanation of what quantum tunneling and the experiments are about.
On request: some links on String theory:
http://www.physics.ucsb.edu/~jpierre/strings/index.html
Not too technical introduction to string theory.
http://superstringtheory.com
You probably know this one. The "official" homepage of string theory (even though it's only the claim that sounds prestigeous). Excellent introduction though.
Chagur, wet1:
I agree with wet1 that not enough is known about gravity to be able to say something about communication techniques. I am now sure about this, but I believe gravity is also restricted to the speed of light. In general relativity, gravity waves spread out at the speed of light. In the attempts to describe a quantum theory of gravity, the graviton is probably also restricted to the speed of light (just for the sake of causality, whether the experiment confirms this is unknown to me). And even if gravity travels faster than light there's still a problem: as wet1 mentioned, how would you affect a mass to produce large enough fluctuations in gravity waves in order to make them detectable several hundreds of lightyears further ? (The waves become smaller in amplitude as they travel further).
And finally, Kmguru:
The tunneling probability indeed depends on the energy of the incoming particles. However, we're talking about probabilities here, so even with a "fixed" energy, there is still a large spread on where a particle has a large enough probability to pop up after tunneling.
I'd make that a few hundred times larger. You'd have to give the particles a lot of energy, and that would require particle accelerators (and most of those don't fit in your basement).
Hrm.... I think directional aiming is sufficient, assuming the tunnelbarrier is uniform in all directions (if the barrier is noticeably smaller in one direction, the distance for tunneling shortens, and hence the probability for emerging there increases).
Bye!
Crisp
Hi everybody,
Wow, I've been gone for a couple of days and all of the sudden there are like 100 messages to catch up. Neat
.Okay, some thoughts:
Kmguru said:
The problem with other particles is that they are forced to travel in "empty space" at speeds not exceeding the speed of light. Gluons are particles that "glue" quarks together, and they have not been verified to exist separately (quarks and gluons always recombine to form couples of quark/antiquark to form a meson particle type, or 3 quarks couple to form a hadron particle type). A boson is a general classification type for particles: we divide all known particles in two categories: bosons and fermions, depending on spin. It's not a particle itself.
Quantum tunneling is a phenomenon were a particle leaks through what is called a "potential barrier". For example: an alpha particle (2 protons + 2 neutrons) can leak out of a nucleus to emit alpha-radiation. Or, if you shoot a particle at a wall, it can leak through the wall (quantum mechanics predicts that if you throw a ball at a wall, there's a slight possibility that the ball will go straight through it... However, the probability is very small). Quantum tunneling is hence the phenomenon that a particle passes an obstacle it normally can't pass; it seems that the particle found a "tunnel" connecting the two opposite sides of the barrier, making it possible for the particle to pass the barrier (while it normally can't, because it hasn't got enough energy).
The reason why I mentioned quantum tunneling is that experiments and calculations suggest that particles pass a barrier faster than the speed of light (it's a little more complicated than this, since there speed for a particle is not always speed as we think it is).
Practically speaking, I don't think you can use quantumtunneling for interstellar communication, because:
- The tunneling probability lowers fast if the width of the barrier to tunnel through increases. The probability that a particle tunnels through a 4 lightyears barrier is nonexistent.
- The barrier here would be the empty-space gap between transmitter and receiver, but the exact location of where the particle will pop out is unknown. So instead of tunneling to the receiver, your particle with the information might appear totally out of direction. You would need some sort of "focussing" here, and I don't think the tunneling phenomenon is understood well enough to do this.
About string theory: I am not familiar with the theory, but I do know that it is still very hypothetical. There have been a couple of experiments that can be explained if you assume string theory, but personally I think there's just not enough evidence to support string theory yet.
Links on quantum tunneling:
http://www.aei-potsdam.mpg.de/~mpoessel/Physik/FTL/tunnelingftl.html
Extensive list of literature on the subject. Technical.
http://www.biols.susx.ac.uk/home/John_Gribbin/quantum.htm#Photons
Basic explanation of what quantum tunneling and the experiments are about.
On request: some links on String theory:
http://www.physics.ucsb.edu/~jpierre/strings/index.html
Not too technical introduction to string theory.
http://superstringtheory.com
You probably know this one. The "official" homepage of string theory (even though it's only the claim that sounds prestigeous). Excellent introduction though.
Chagur, wet1:
I agree with wet1 that not enough is known about gravity to be able to say something about communication techniques. I am now sure about this, but I believe gravity is also restricted to the speed of light. In general relativity, gravity waves spread out at the speed of light. In the attempts to describe a quantum theory of gravity, the graviton is probably also restricted to the speed of light (just for the sake of causality, whether the experiment confirms this is unknown to me). And even if gravity travels faster than light there's still a problem: as wet1 mentioned, how would you affect a mass to produce large enough fluctuations in gravity waves in order to make them detectable several hundreds of lightyears further ? (The waves become smaller in amplitude as they travel further).
And finally, Kmguru:
The tunneling probability indeed depends on the energy of the incoming particles. However, we're talking about probabilities here, so even with a "fixed" energy, there is still a large spread on where a particle has a large enough probability to pop up after tunneling.
I'd make that a few hundred times larger
. You'd have to give the particles a lot of energy, and that would require particle accelerators (and most of those don't fit in your basement).Hrm.... I think directional aiming is sufficient, assuming the tunnelbarrier is uniform in all directions (if the barrier is noticeably smaller in one direction, the distance for tunneling shortens, and hence the probability for emerging there increases).
Bye!
Crisp
Crisp
My post re. the speed of gravity was based on the following:
www.metaresearch.org/cosmology/gravity/possiblenewpropertiesofgravity.asp
Not quite sure how reputable the site is, but there also is some stuff that seems to back it up on:
www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/grav_speed.html
Chagur
My post re. the speed of gravity was based on the following:
www.metaresearch.org/cosmology/gravity/possiblenewpropertiesofgravity.asp
Not quite sure how reputable the site is, but there also is some stuff that seems to back it up on:
www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/grav_speed.html
Chagur
kmguru
Staff member
My understanding of gravity is very little. I think, gravity is the effect of mass or caused by mass. If we hold a theory that forces can be transformed from one form to another, may be someday, someone will find a gravity generator which has the effect of gravity without the required mass. My understanding is that presently we do not even have a theory as to how to accomplish this.
Several years ago a physicist wrote a paper on hypercharge theory that can in effect create artificial gravity. Whatever it is, we need either electricity or an engine to make it happen. Converting electron to graviton will be very interesting indeed.
So what do you think? 100 years or more? or never?
Several years ago a physicist wrote a paper on hypercharge theory that can in effect create artificial gravity. Whatever it is, we need either electricity or an engine to make it happen. Converting electron to graviton will be very interesting indeed.
So what do you think? 100 years or more? or never?
cyberlight13
Registered Member
kmguru,
Interested in Interstellar communication.
Saw your dialog of 07-13-01 in which you mention Int. Comm.
I can send you photographs of apparatus with this purpose.
Sincerely yours,
cyberlight13
cyberlight13@yahoo.com
Interested in Interstellar communication.
Saw your dialog of 07-13-01 in which you mention Int. Comm.
I can send you photographs of apparatus with this purpose.
Sincerely yours,
cyberlight13
cyberlight13@yahoo.com
kmguru
Staff member
Iwas kidding around about the Graviton Generator...though I have some ideas how to make a FTL communication device. While there is no restriction in physics about converting one fundamental force to another, I have not spent the time to research the development of a graviton Generator.
We are many years away from making it possible.
We are many years away from making it possible.
Mosheh Thezion
Registered Senior Member
Take a capacitor... charge it...
then seperate the two halves....
one plate launches into deep space...
the other stays on earth...
no matter how far away the ship gets... the two plates will be connected.
then its a matter of modulating the voltage across the two plates...
such as vibrating one plate... the vibration should cause a fluctuation in the existing field... which may. may be detectable.
-MT
then seperate the two halves....
one plate launches into deep space...
the other stays on earth...
no matter how far away the ship gets... the two plates will be connected.
then its a matter of modulating the voltage across the two plates...
such as vibrating one plate... the vibration should cause a fluctuation in the existing field... which may. may be detectable.
-MT