Intelligent design redux

What requires it to be sensible? I know swallowing camels and straining at gnats is required here, but slavish abasement to the rules, especially the unwritten ones, is for those who follow.

In other words, get over it.
 
Gawdzilla Sama said:
What requires it to be sensible? I know swallowing camels and straining at gnats is required here, but slavish abasement to the rules, especially the unwritten ones, is for those who follow.

In other words, get over it.
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Isn't it kind of our job - as skeptics of ID - to make cogent arguments?

If our arguments against ID are nonsensical, how do we hope to prevail?
 
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billvon said:
Yes, it impacts average lifespan for several reasons.

It selects against people who die in their 30's, so AVERAGE lifespan increases
It selects against people who go through early menopause - and early menopause has some correlation to age at death
It selects against people who become obese/alcoholic etc later in life to a degree that makes them less likey to have children. These people tend to not live as long.
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This is interesting stuff. I see a few problems in interpreting data, though.

One, it is difficult to say how many deaths in the 30s are owing to phenotypic expression of an allele or group of alleles v purely environmental effects. I would agree so far as early onset familial ALS is concerned, for example, as it makes starting a family later quite challenging, and is associated with specific genetic markers. And there are a range of testable genetic conditions now, leading to couples who voluntarily opt not to have children and adopt instead, e.g.

Early menopause could meaningfully correlate with shorter lifespan - though again, separating genetic and environmental (or epigenetic influence) factors seem really tricky. Famine-ridden (or food insecure) populations can show a strong trend to earlier menopause, for example, but without any shift in allele frequencies that impact potential longevity. In wealthy societies, early menopause can result from higher exposures to phthalates, PCBs and other EDCs.

As for obesity/alcoholism, this doesn't seem likely to reduce longevity to the degree where it would stop reproductive success in the 30s. There are for sure consequences that pile on in later decades, but I'm not aware of clear evidence that there are significant fertility impacts. And there seem to be plenty of fat drunk moms and dads out there, keeping our social workers quite busy these days and managing to have more babies than they can handle. I'm not really saying you couldn't be pointing to a real causal factor there, just that it's quite difficult to separate out from a lot of stochastic noise.
 
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Gawdzilla Sama said:
NOT just reproductive fitness, rather success at reproducing, aka "lived long enough to reproduce".
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This definition of reproductive fitness is incomplete. It means both living to reproductive age and also manifesting phenotypic traits that may or may not have any relation to overall adaptation to an ecosystem niche. Some traits are simply serving as sexual display - "peacock" traits, IOW. Why are there very tall people? Very tall people have lower proportionate core strength, less stamina, weaker immune systems, earlier onset of joint and spinal issues, etc. and yet millions of females simply see them as attractive potential mates and enjoy their aura of power and protection. Sexual selection often operates in the realm of acculturated symbolism.
 
TheVat said:
One, it is difficult to say how many deaths in the 30s are owing to phenotypic expression of an allele or group of alleles v purely environmental effects.
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Absolutely. And it is almost certainly a combination of both. However, phenotype depends on genotype, and phenotype does confer some protection against environmental effects that can cause death. This can be as direct as "darker skin prevents skin cancer" or as indirect as "smart people make more money and can move out of gang infested areas."

As for obesity/alcoholism, this doesn't seem likely to reduce longevity to the degree where it would stop reproductive success in the 30s.
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Severe versions do. Unfortunately, I know a few people who killed themselves off with alcohol before they had any kids. I knew a third who wisely decided to not have kids since she wasn't able to stop drinking.
 
TheVat said:
As for obesity/alcoholism, this doesn't seem likely to reduce longevity to the degree where it would stop reproductive success in the 30s. There are for sure consequences that pile on in later decades, but I'm not aware of clear evidence that there are significant fertility impacts.
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Alcoholism is a generational disease. The parents can directly affect biological health of their offspring (see fetal alcohol syndrome) but can also indirectly affect them (children of alcoholics are more likely to have addictive personalities and dependencies).
 
billvon said:
Evolution doesn't care or know about any of that. All it knows is that people are dying before they have kids. The reason is that all their crops are dying due to Gatorade watering, but evolution doesn't care about that.
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What would it do about it to survive?
 
davewhite04 said:
What would it do about it to survive?
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In principle, some portion of the population that, for whatever reason , bred earlier would be to pass their sense along to the next generation. The effect, then is that the species might evolve to have offspring earlier.
 
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