Insinuations, accusations and immorality

Discussion in 'About the Members' started by Tiassa, Dec 1, 2023.

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  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Moderator note: This thread was split from another discussion, in which an off-topic matter was introduced. The original thread is here:

    Why do people believe in God?


    A copy of this post, with the off-topic part removed, remains in the original thread.

    Some matters raised in this thread are more than six months old. See the following thread for a little more context:

    Moderator makes ad hominem attacks on another moderator


    ----------------
    It's like you're not even paying attention:

    Like the part where I said: I recently had occasion to recall an old formulation about "the point where their unsupported beliefs start having detrimental impacts on other people".

    And that was 1578. In 2023—

    —the bigger problem might be a thing called Christian nationalism, you know, the problem that's going on right now, instead of once upon a time in 1578.

    Just for instance.

    Meanwhile:

    Yeah, but I'm not beefing with the Quakers down the street because of Joseph Kony in Uganda, or the Christian nationalists in ... oh, right.

    That's because you only allow religion to be defined in such a preclusive manner. And, let's face it, at some point that becomes bigotry. The reality is that most religious people just aren't as evil as your sixteenth-century nightmares require.

    And this is you continuing to insist on your own preclusive definition. The actual fact is that inasmuch as atheism is supposed to be some opposite or counterpoint to religion, your version is inadequate to actually fulfill such a role. The thing is that there are certain behaviors and circumstances that humans seem to need. That some of these occur in a religious context is what it is, but insofar as they can occur outside a religious context, no, atheism simply does not address those, and thus cannot replace them. This is not a new idea around here. Still, in our moment you seem to have missed some stuff: There is a reasonable question of what atheism offers, as such, and the answer is either a lot or not much; what makes that growth and sustainability precarious is the prospect that none of that other stuff has anything to do with atheism; left in the void, like that, atheism offers little existential comfort or fundamental socialization; it's not just the sociality or regularity of church culture.

    And compare that last to your huffing: "I see no benefits in religion. You can believe anything you want. Just don't come knocking on my door and tell me that I need religion." It's not necessarily a matter of whether you see any benefit; nor is it simply a question of belief. Like sociality; maybe you missed the part about strength in numbers, comfort in familiarity, and empowerment in solidarity, and that religious people are human in the same way. In fact, that last seems to be what you're trying so hard to deny.

    Do you feel better for having said that?

    Sure. Whatever. Same goes for Schwann's, Omaha Steaks, Ziply, real estate agents, and homeless folks pitching magazine subscriptions in exchange for shelter.

    Again, this is a matter of your peculiar definitions. No, one is not necessarily, as such, "atheist to 2999 gods"; that's just you making it up. Not only is your argument dependent on your own definition of an atheist or being atheist, it also depends on your own definition of God and gods.

    This is not an unusual problem. Let me see if I can give you a comparable example. There was a time I was talking to this guy I know about talking to God, and reminded that there was more than one version of talking to God. This point kind of confused him, so I offered a few different examples from different religious outlooks, including one that involves walking down the street to talk to God at His house. And compared to the question of how we know we have the right house, he never did bother asking which God; it didn't matter because he didn't care. His questions didn't reflect the God out there that a believer might be talking about, but his own God, one he carries around, so there wasn't any reason for him to ask which God I was talking about. Do you understand? He imposed a meaning, and anything that did not fit within its boundaries apparently didn't count, or compute, or register, or something. That is, when you talk to that particular atheist about God, there is only one "God" he is capable of discussing; in that way, he's just not so different from the religious people he is so critical of.

    Similarly, your critique against religion doesn't really care what religion actually is; you find no benefit in religion because that's how you define it. And once you go down that path, it's not so much disagreement between believers and nonbelievers as disputing between religious zealots.

    Whatever it is about believers you're afraid of, just don't pretend you're helping.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2023
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  3. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    I see that some hate filled little man that I know has chosen to insinuate and tell some lies about somebody else. The hate filled little man has no personal integrity, let alone courage. Instead, he takes sly, backhanded swipes at people, based on lies.

    The hate filled little man should probably just stick to posting his blogs on his own page (wherever that is). If he's lucky, some day somebody might read something he wrote there. In the meantime, he'd be better off taking his seething hatred away.
     
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Sly!
    Says the man who misses no opportunity to belittle people he "knows", to make himself proud.
    You have not a single clue as to the insult you are heaping on injury.
    I guess I must not be a good atheist either. Sometimes you do amuse me, James.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2023
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  7. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Oh, now you want to step into this do you, Write4U?

    I will ask you some questions.

    As a preliminary matter, I want to make sure you understand what you're referring to. Read Tiassa's post #118 [post #1 in the current thread] - especially the third last paragraph. You are aware, I hope, that my post #121 [post #2 in the current thread] is a response to that. Are you aware of this? If not, then you can go on your way and we'll just forget that you commented on this. Let me know.

    Next: you have accused me of missing no opportunity to belittle people I know. Questions:
    1. Is this a roundabout way of accusing me of belittling you, or do you wish to make the general accusation that I miss no opportunity to belittle lots of people on this forum, whom I know?
    2. Can you support your accusation that I have belittled somebody, quoting relevant posts of mine? (Be sure to quote relevant example posts if you're referring to my behaviour in respect of more than one person.)
    Next, let us to put this in context, since your comment immediately followed posts #118 and #121. Questions:
    1. Do you understand what Tiassa meant to do in the third last paragraph of post #118?
    2. Do you consider that generally acceptable behaviour? For instance, if that sort of thing was directed at you, would you approve?
    3. Do you think it was appropriate and acceptable from him, given that his target was me? Does that excuse him?
    Next, let us discuss motives. You have claimed that I miss no opportunity to belittle other people, to make myself proud. Questions:
    1. Do you think that, as a general proposition, belittling other people is a good way to make a person proud of himself?
    2. Do you think that I feel pride in myself if I belittle somebody else?
    3. Do you think I'm not as proud as I should be?
    4. Do you think I don't feel like I'm as proud as I want to be?
    5. Would you belittle somebody else to make yourself feel proud?
    6. It seems like you didn't waste this opportunity to try to belittle me. Do you think you might have a double standard, at all? It's okay for you to belittle me, but it's not okay for me to belittle you and/or other people?
    7. Are you proud of yourself in calling me out with your Truth?
    I'm so glad you have created this opportunity to exchange our views on moral matters like this one, Write4U. I look forward to your detailed reply.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2023
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    • Do not troll.
    I won't waste my time.
     
  9. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Moderator note: Write4U has been warned for trolling.
     
  10. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Seeing as we're here, now, let me discuss the matter that started the ball rolling with this thread in the first place.

    Full disclosure:

    Tiassa posted post #1 above in a different thread (see link at the top of post #1).
    I replied in that thread with post #2.
    Tiassa filed a report, that he wanted a moderator to handle, complaining that my post was off topic.
    In the meantime, Write4U decided to make some accusations in the same thread (see post #3, here).
    I copied Tiassa's post (#1) to this thread, and moved other off-topic posts to this new thread.

    I agree that Tiassa's original insinuation was off-topic, as was my reply. I think it was appropriate for the moderator who responded to Tiassa's report (myself, as it happened) to move the off-topic posts to this thread.
    ----

    Now, I am interested in what our members think about Tiassa's behaviour here, and elsewhere. Tiassa has developed a habit of inserting sly insinuations about me into his posts. Typically, his insinuations do not reference things I have written. They also tend to be off the topic that is being discussed, although he pretends at relevance by inserting them into discussions alongside material that is vaguely on topic.

    When Tiassa does this, he does not refer to me by name. He does not quote anything I have written. But he does tend to refer to me by my tag line "Just this guy, you know?" (which is a long-standing insider joke that might amuse people who are familiar with the works of Douglas Adams). Tiassa does this because he understands that I will notice when he uses my tag line, and he wants me to notice.

    Whenever Tiassa refers to me in this way, he tells outright lies. His posts are peppered with claims about things I supposed wrote in the past, opinions I supposedly hold, actions I have supposedly taken, attitudes I supposedly have, etc. He also likes to throw in some personal insults, for good measure.

    This kind of behaviour is one-sided. I do not tell lies about Tiassa. He consistently and repeatedly tells lies about me. I do not attempt to engage with him. He is constantly chasing me around, trying to bait me, almost begging for attention. I call him a hate-filled little man, when he inserts his lies and insinuations into his posts, because that is what he appears to be, at least when it comes to me.

    I broke ties with Tiassa, as far as possible on this forum, after he made three explicit and serious false accusations against me in the public forums here, back in June 2023. Those accusations were:

    (a) I am an advocate for white supremacy;
    (b) I am an advocate for sex crimes;
    (c) I am racist.

    All three of these claims are false. All three are lies, knowingly and deliberately told.

    In my opinion, there is no excuse or justification for Tiassa's disgusting behaviour.

    At the time of writing this, it is approaching 6 months since Tiassa made these false accusations. He has neither retracted them, nor apologised to me for making them. I have asked for a public apology from Tiassa. Instead of doing the right thing he has, in fact, doubled down on these lies, not only refusing to retract, but actually repeating them.

    Tiassa remains a confirmed, serial and unrepentant liar. He ought to be ashamed of himself, but the man apparently has no conscience to speak of.

    His continual insinuations, combined with his refusal to use my name, shows that he is a coward as well as a liar.
    ---

    Whenever this issue comes up on sciforums - and it does so fairly regularly since Tiassa won't leave me alone - my observation is that members here tend to brush it off, or just talk about how it's a bad look for two moderators on a forum to be arguing with one another. I am disappointed that so few people are willing to recognise Tiassa's appalling behaviour for what it is. Maybe this is because Tiassa has managed to fly below the radar. Maybe it's because you don't want to get involved in a dispute between moderators (which is understandable).

    This is not an unsolvable situation. I am not despairing. However, for those who might not be aware, I guess I just wanted to call this what it is.

    I am aware that, for some, this is just a bit of popcorn-munching theatre to watch from the sidelines. I am also aware that by giving Tiassa this attention, I am lowering myself towards his level. Believe me, I would much prefer to avoid this man who keeps injecting himself and his lies about me into discussions.

    There's more I could say, but that's enough for now, I think.
     
  11. Pinball1970 Registered Senior Member

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    Just an outsider I am obviously unaware of the back and forth.

    A-C however need addressing. I joined the forum in good faith and different opinions are fine but accusations of this nature are not, they are a record and can be quoted for Defamation of character/legal.
    Tiassa should either retract or justify.
    A retraction would show a good deal of class, healthy for the site too.
     
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  12. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    18,887
    I have tried to engage Tiassa in good faith. His behavior is singular: irresponsibility > deflection and reversal > accusation.


    I do not know why this behavior is tolerated from a member - let alone from a moderator, who is presumably held to ahigher standard..

    It's playground pathology. Like Susy, who says she hates Calvin and his dumb tiger, yet keeps baiting him into giving her attention. It's school girlish.

    "Hey Calvin, remember when you hit me with that snowball back in 2017? Well, I've saved that snowball on my shelf of 'Things I Never Let Go'. You've been ignoring me lately, so I'm taking it down and polishing it."


    What exactly would this recognition look like? Serious question.

    Engaging is wholly and utterly fruitless. I personally have tried, and gotten the exact same behavior.

    So, for me, this recognition takes the form of ignoring him. It is the only action I have available. But it's a pretty invisible form of protest.


    I guess reporting transgressions is the next best thing but I have found it to be so completely odious that I have no interest in the disjointed stream-of-consciousness thoughts or the self-stroking graphics he likes to lead off his posts with - so it ensures we just never cross paths.

    Even if I did cross paths, there's nothing to engage with. Tiassa doesn't converse with other people; Tiassa writes only for his own self pleasure.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2023
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  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    I don't generally read his posts, since I find them fairly verbose, convoluted and self-absorbed. If he bothers you, don't engage him. There's even an IGNORE feature here you can use if your eye tends to be drawn to his posts.
    Yeah, he called me a rape advocate a while back. There's a process that occurs:

    1) T says something dumb
    2) someone replies and points out that his statement was dumb
    3) T calls them a rape advocate, or a racist, or something else to attempt to derail the discussion and move it away from the dumb thing he said.

    Best to ignore him.
     
  14. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Nope. Not active for site officials.
    First thing I tried.
     
  15. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, brother.
    Okay - alternative view ahead - be warned.

    I see nothing wrong with the technical content of what Tiassa wrote (#1 above) that has subsequently been deemed to be off-topic. To me, it most certainly isn't off-topic: it is an example (fictitious or otherwise) being used to further explain his point to Write4U.
    There is, of course, a personal side to that content, the perceived insinuations etc, but that doesn't make it off-topic per se. Such things would make it a matter of flaming, or insulting, etc. But that doesn't render the paragraph as a whole off-topic.

    So, with that out of the way, I do find this thread itself to be inappropriate. I find it to have been set up by a moderator simply to attack another moderator. I am aware of the friction and dislike between the two, but taking an insinuation in one thread as an excuse to raise yet another whole new thread to try to attack them in response seems wholly inappropriate.

    If it was standard MO to split off posts containing insinuations (perceived or otherwise) or personal insults into a new thread so that everyone can then pile in with their view of that person's behaviour, then fair enough. But it isn't. Thank God. So why should it be okay for moderators to do it, to raise yet another thread aimed at denigrating a person when it suits them, when the insinuation is directed at them personally? How many threads is it now that have been raised to address how James R has issues with Tiassa? How many have been raised, and been allowed to remain open, to complain about any other member?

    Anyhoo - I understand that there is the on-going issue between the two, the accusations that have been made etc., suported or otherwise. But that doesn't mean that this thread is any less inapproriate, or that the reaction to the original post is no less a heavy-handed overreaction.

    And what precedence is this whole reaction of yours creating? That we can't use prior examples involving other members when trying to explain a point to someone? Or is it only Tiassa who can't use examples involving, insinuated or otherwise, James R for that purpose? I'm confused.
    Or if it is the matter of the insinuations, what if we see such "sly insinuations" of us by moderators or other members? Should we then be able to censor their post, and/or move it entirely to a new thread so as to bitterly complain about them? I get that you're a moderator, James R, but here you're quite clearly using your moderator-capabilities for personal gain, rather than in the consistent manner you really should be employing. At least that's my view.

    As to this...
    If they're anything like me then it's because we simply couldn't care enough, James R. It's between the two of you. Deal with it in private. There's nothing we can do about it even if we agreed with you and wanted to do something about it. There's one of them pesky guidelines under "Netiquette" about how you should avoid engaging with members with whom you have a personality clash. Unfortunately your post #2 above shows that you're not helping yourself in this regard. Your subsequent creation of this thread.... sure. That'll help.

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    I would also suggest that many of us are simply fed up with you airing your grievances in public like this. Repeatedly. At almost every opportunity. You feel hurt. You feel you've been insulted. We get it. You might well be justified in feeling those things (I can't say for sure because I haven't actually read where he's accused you of those things or where he thinks he's supported them). But telling us how bad a person you think he is every chance you get?... yeah, sorry, I'm looking for a **** to give, but I can't find any to hand.

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  16. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Sarkus:

    A copy of his post (#1) remains in the original thread.

    Of course, this latest personal attack on me, filled with lies, was off-topic. The rest of that post was, essentially, an attack on another poster, but not off-topic.

    Tiassa reported my reply (#2) as being off-topic. I'd say he wanted very much to make his lies about me a topic. So, here we are. I moved my off-topic post to its own thread, with a copy of Tiassa's post (necessary for context).
    Your priorities are remarkable.
    I think I have been clear about what the problem with Tiassa is, in post #7, above.

    I wonder what you think an appropriate response would be if Tiassa accused you of being a racist, white supremacist adcocate for sex crimes. Maybe you'd just let it slide?
    Think about why that isn't standard MO here. Take a minute. Think about what usually happens when a member makes a false accusation of white supremacy, racism or sex crime advocacy against another member.

    Tell me what you think should be done about Tiassa, then.
    I'm not sure what you mean by "yet another thread". Which other thread or threads are you including in these "others" you mention?

    Let me be clear. At no time does it "suit" me to be called a white supremacist, a racist or a sex crime advocate. I am not and have never been any of those things.

    So far, I have only asked for a complete retraction of those false accusations and a public apology from the odious man who made them.

    It seems like you think that Tiassa's behaviour is justifiable, or at least acceptable. But apparently, my response to it is inappropriate denigration of him. How do you figure that, Sarkus?
    I believe that, including this one, the answer is: one.
    That's debateable. However, you might ask how many people who have knowingly posted false and malicious accusations about another member of this forum have not been officially sanctioned for their behaviour. You might also take some time to think about why that is, and what's different this time around.
    Hint: if you falsely accuse another member of this forum of being a racist, bigoted, white supremacist sex crime advocate, you will rapidly discover that you can't use that to explain a point to someone. Think about why.
    Something about your moral compass goes here. You just don't seem to understand why there's even an issue. Your priorities are bizarre.
    The normal procedure in such cases would be for you to hit the "report" button, file a report on the odious and unacceptable behaviour (which clearly breaches numerous posting guidelines that we have in place), and wait for a moderator to handle it. Which will happen as a matter of course.

    Think about why that is, and what's different about Tiassa.
    You don't need to. A moderator (more often than not, me) will handle that sort of thing in the ordinary course of events.
    Indeed. Your priorities are extraordinary.
    I understand clearly that you don't care enough. There was really no need for you to tell us. Anybody who has read your posts for a while will likely be aware of how you are when it comes to this sort of thing.
    Tiassa chose the public forums for this. You don't seem to understand.
    That is correct. Don't worry. (Oh, you weren't.) I don't expect you to do anything about it. Please feel free to ignore this thread, Sarkus. Clearly, nothing here concerns you.
    Indeed.

    Should that provision apply to Tiassa, do you think? Is constant stalking and insinuation and false accusation acceptable when there's a "personality clash", do you think?
    The alternative was to ignore the n-th iteration of Tiassa's sly insinuations and stalking behaviour.

    How long would you want to put up with that sort of thing? I wonder.
    It has already helped, actually. But thanks for expressing your concerns, Sarkus.
    Have you suggested any similar modifications in behaviour to Tiassa, or aren't you concerned about him airing his grievances? If not, why not? I'm fascinated to know.
    I instigated this, did I, Sarkus? That's what you're seeing?
    I don't think you get it at all.
    You think that, perhaps, I might be a racist, white supremacist sex crimes advocate, like he says?

    That's your thinking?
    That's not at all unexpected, from you.

    Thanks for your comments, Sarkus. It's always a pleasure hearing from you on moral matters.
     
  17. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    The issue is two staff members that, seemingly, have no control over each other and an owner that, seemingly, doesn't get involved.

    Therefore, seemingly, there is nothing that can be done. That being the case, why even discuss this?

    Everyone on here has been accused of being a racist and of being a troll at one time or another. If "we" need to get over it, the same should apply to staff members. No one reads this forum anyway so what's the issue?

    There is no reading of the rules that govern this site that would allow any member to continually call another "that hateful little man" so nothing that is being discussed in this thread is rational in the least.

    If neither of you can do anything about the other, then why keep bringing this subject up?
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2023
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  18. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    James R:
    I've picked out the main points, just to keep letter-count down:

    It was on-topic, clearly, albeit with a thinly veiled dig at you. That doesn't make it off-topic. I've already explained why it was on-topic. You could disagree but you would be wrong.
    You mean if he accused me of being a bigot, or immoral, perhaps? I'd have issue with it at the time. I'd ask for an apology, but no doubt he'd start any apology with "I did not call you a bigot" etc. But, after a while, if I'm not getting anywhere with making the person realise how reprehensible their actions were, and I have no recourse to sanctions etc, and I still want to post here, I just put it to the back of my mind and carry on.
    I mean, I could turn every dig by the person into another thread to attack them and to rehash the same issues that weren't resolved to my satisfaction the first time, and keep beating my head against that wall. But what would be the point?
    I guess it would be like when they make a false accusation of bigotry, or keep making insinuations about being immoral? Hmmm. What happens to those members, I wonder. Any idea?
    If you don't want to deal with him, and can't resolve the issue in private, then ignore him. Simples. Your appealing to the audience is, well, boring. Especially if you don't quite get the echo-chamber you were hoping for.
    https://www.sciforums.com/threads/moderator-makes-ad-hominem-attacks-on-another-moderator.166009/
    Note how in post #3 of this thread your immediately bring up those same 3 accusations.
    There may well be others that have been derailed as a result of the same issue, but I'm not hunting for any.
    And maybe he'll start any apology with "I did not do those things..."? That would be acceptable to you, right?
    I'm not referencing the initial accusations you think he may have made, or did make. I'm talking specifically about what he wrote in his post to Write4U, you picking up on the fact that the example he was using was about you, and you overreacting to it as you clearly have done, to the point that you are looking to rehash the whole issue.
    For sure I know of one. You. It's similarly different from the norm because you're a moderator, and we have no power to sanction you.
    I can't comment on Tiassa's accusations of you because I don't know that he did actually accuse you of those things. Point me to where you think he did and I'll happily review them. And if he did accuse, unjustifiably, then that would take the count to two, I guess. Both moderators. Go figure.
    Is that what you think Tiassa's paragraph to W4U was doing? Please do point to where you think Tiassa used those accusations to explain a point to W4U?
    Well, based on your own behaviour I would suggest you think it is. I mean, you do know you're being hypocritical with this, right?
    Yes. That is the alternative. That is what we would have to do, and what some actually do. That is what you should do.
    Until I realised that nothing would come of it, I guess, and that if I want to post here I'll just have to live with who they are and what they've done, no matter how wrong their behaviour.
    Beyond telling you both to keep your issues in private, no. But then he's not the one creating threads to attack you, is he. He's not the one redacting your posts because of a perceived slight.
    Yes. And I'm referring only to this overreaction, your redacting of part of his post to W4U, and you setting up this thread to attack him. That is all on you.

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    Anyhoo...
    FYI, following your clear advice about how to handle such insinuations, I have reported your post for these two comments above, both clearly insinuating that I am not acting morally, both harking back to your nonsense accusations of such about cryptocurrency. But, hey, at least I'm not starting a thread about it to attack you, and bringing up that you also falsely accused me of bigotry and haven't apologised for it. I mean, that would be petty, childish, and against forum rules, right?

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    Oh, the irony of it all.


    And FYI - I am not, nor have any intention of, revisiting your false accusations, despite your ongoing insinuations. I am merely using the fact that you are guilty of making them as an example to make a point.

    Also for the record: I own no Tiassa, I don't work for Tiassa, nor am I sponsored by Tiassa.

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  19. foghorn Valued Senior Member

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    All this is not boding well for the Sciforums Christmas Eve carols and mince pies in the "Free Thoughts" forum later this month. I suppose that be off now.
     
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  20. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    Christmas is cancelled this year at Sciforums.
     
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    How about replacing it with a secular wish of : "Peace on Earth and goodwill toward mankind".

    We can have all the trappings. After all, we can't celebrate anything without spending lots of money, now can we?
     
  22. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Nooo! I even bought a "hate-filled little man" costume.

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  23. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    That's 2 holidays ago...
     
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