Improving reliability of electricity during a storm

[wegs]

As Hurricane Dorian approaches the US, supposedly going to make landfall on Sunday night, there's always a lingering concern of the power going out. Electric power can be disrupted during a storm due to lightning striking a transformer or fallen trees taking down power lines. (and other reasons)

This article is a few years old, but worth reading.

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/f...liability and Resilience Report June 2013.pdf

A combination of grid modernization technologies along with traditional “hardening” of infrastructure are required to optimize resilience of the twenty-first century grid and improve power restoration efforts during VLSEs.

From a consumer point of view, it's hard to see if vast improvements are being made when you're repeatedly warned that the power in your area might ''go out'' or ''be disrupted'' during a storm.

Does anyone here work in the utilities/energy industry? What are your thoughts on the progress being made to improve sustainability and reliability. when it comes to electricity during a storm? (Even if you don't work in the utilities industry, feel free to chime in)

 

[DaveC426913]

From a consumer point of view, it's hard to see if vast improvements are being made when you're repeatedly warned that the power in your area might ''go out'' or ''be disrupted'' during a storm.

It's likely that they can't eliminate power outages, but they can work toward reducing the areas affected, as well as the outage duration. That may not seem like much to any given consumer (Imean, if it happens to you, it doesnt matter whether 75,000 other homes are affected, or whether it's just the 750 near you), but it would probably show up as definite improvement when seen in the aggregated data.

P.S. Based on the title, I thought this was going to be about harvesting lightning.

 

[wegs]

It's likely that they can't eliminate power outages, but they can work toward reducing the areas affected, as well as the outage duration. That may not seem like much to any given consumer (Imean, if it happens to you, it doesnt matter whether 75,000 other homes are affected, or whether it's just the 750 near you), but it would probably show up as definite improvement when seen in the aggregated data.

It would be an improvement if the downtime greatly diminished. I shouldn't complain. Most of the time, the power doesn't go out in my area.

P.S. Based on the title, I thought this was going to be about harvesting lightning.

ha Sorry to disappoint.

Partially selfish motives for creating this thread, since I'm indirectly in Dorian's path. :/

 

[billvon]

Does anyone here work in the utilities/energy industry? What are your thoughts on the progress being made to improve sustainability and reliability. when it comes to electricity during a storm? (Even if you don't work in the utilities industry, feel free to chime in)

I have lots of opinions on this that are worth what you paid for them!

Local options:

A generator with a transfer switch will always be the easiest/cheapest/best way to get power during an outage. It's completely local, no reliance on utilities or infrastructure, and can keep you going for weeks. Propane is the best fuel for generators; it doesn't "go bad."

A hybrid vehicle is effectively a generator on wheels. Using a 12V inverter to get ~1000 watts or so will give you many days of power - and hybrid vehicles have efficiencies similar to, or better than, a regular generator.

An electric vehicle is going to have a battery that can last for days. For example, a Bolt with a 60kwhr battery will run essential loads in your house for 5-10 days. (Refrigerator, some lights, a fan, a sump pump etc.)

Some solar power systems (like SMA Sunnyboys) now have a "secure power" option that will provide power for as long as the sun is out. There are no batteries, so your power goes out when it gets dark or there's a storm. But it's a good way to recharge cellphones, run refrigerators during the day, even recharge a $99 Best Buy UPS to get you power through the night.

The expensive/elegant option is a battery backed solar system like the StorEdge or Skybox systems. These do two things for you. They let you run off solar 100% of time when power goes out - AND they allow you to do self-generation (i.e. generate and use your own power) even when the grid is OK. This can hugely reduce your power bill.

Nearby options:

Microgrids are small grids that can "island" or run separately from the main grid. Typically they are on the scale of a housing or condo development, and are owned/operated by the HOA or other community association. They usually have batteries for storage, a set of inverters/chargers to allow independent operation, and sometimes include solar or wind as a secondary source of energy. These are a lot of work, but utilities will often support their development because they can do DR (demand-response) to reduce the need to buy and run peaker plants.

Occasionally a town will decide to run their own power system. My sister lives in Rockville Centre in NY and they have their own generator and power grid. When the main grid fails they can fire up 7 2-megawatt generators that can run the city center (traffic lights, police offices, hospitals etc) and 3000 homes. That's not quite a microgrid but it's close.

Large scale options:

Resiliency is the big buzzword these days, and it's mainly driven by the addition of large amounts of solar and wind to the grid. This often necessitates SCADA (supervisory control and data acquisition) upgrades. With these upgrades come better control over transmission lines, demand response and distributed energy generation (like solar.) Also, solar inverters can provide "ancillary services" to the grid like frequency and voltage stabilization that makes the grid more immune to transients that could damage it or cause blackouts.

Also BESS (storage) is ramping up fast. Utilities are starting to see storage as a good alternative to peaker plants - cheaper, more reliable and less likely to freak people out. As a result they can be distributed all over, and can allow the easy formation of local microgrids that can remain 'up' for short times when the grid goes out.

 

[wegs]

I have lots of opinions on this that are worth what you paid for them!

Local options:

A generator with a transfer switch will always be the easiest/cheapest/best way to get power during an outage. It's completely local, no reliance on utilities or infrastructure, and can keep you going for weeks. Propane is the best fuel for generators; it doesn't "go bad."

A hybrid vehicle is effectively a generator on wheels. Using a 12V inverter to get ~1000 watts or so will give you many days of power - and hybrid vehicles have efficiencies similar to, or better than, a regular generator.

An electric vehicle is going to have a battery that can last for days. For example, a Bolt with a 60kwhr battery will run essential loads in your house for 5-10 days. (Refrigerator, some lights, a fan, a sump pump etc.)

Some solar power systems (like SMA Sunnyboys) now have a "secure power" option that will provide power for as long as the sun is out. There are no batteries, so your power goes out when it gets dark or there's a storm. But it's a good way to recharge cellphones, run refrigerators during the day, even recharge a $99 Best Buy UPS to get you power through the night.

The expensive/elegant option is a battery backed solar system like the StorEdge or Skybox systems. These do two things for you. They let you run off solar 100% of time when power goes out - AND they allow you to do self-generation (i.e. generate and use your own power) even when the grid is OK. This can hugely reduce your power bill.

Nearby options:

Microgrids are small grids that can "island" or run separately from the main grid. Typically they are on the scale of a housing or condo development, and are owned/operated by the HOA or other community association. They usually have batteries for storage, a set of inverters/chargers to allow independent operation, and sometimes include solar or wind as a secondary source of energy. These are a lot of work, but utilities will often support their development because they can do DR (demand-response) to reduce the need to buy and run peaker plants.

Occasionally a town will decide to run their own power system. My sister lives in Rockville Centre in NY and they have their own generator and power grid. When the main grid fails they can fire up 7 2-megawatt generators that can run the city center (traffic lights, police offices, hospitals etc) and 3000 homes. That's not quite a microgrid but it's close.

Large scale options:

Resiliency is the big buzzword these days, and it's mainly driven by the addition of large amounts of solar and wind to the grid. This often necessitates SCADA (supervisory control and data acquisition) upgrades. With these upgrades come better control over transmission lines, demand response and distributed energy generation (like solar.) Also, solar inverters can provide "ancillary services" to the grid like frequency and voltage stabilization that makes the grid more immune to transients that could damage it or cause blackouts.

Also BESS (storage) is ramping up fast. Utilities are starting to see storage as a good alternative to peaker plants - cheaper, more reliable and less likely to freak people out. As a result they can be distributed all over, and can allow the easy formation of local microgrids that can remain 'up' for short times when the grid goes out.

lol Okay. First things first. I kind of don't like the idea of having to buy my own generator.

But, you have my attention about an electric car serving as a generator? What?

 

[Seattle]

Burying the power lines underground (as many communities do) seems like a pretty good solution. They aren't buried in my area unfortunately.

 

[wegs]

Exactly ^^

That's what should be done. I think they're progressing towards that, but I wonder if flash flooding can affect underground lines? Not sure how deep they'd be buried.

 

[billvon]

But, you have my attention about an electric car serving as a generator? What?

There are a lot of ways you can do this.

The "best" way is to get access to the traction battery, which is usually around 200-400 volts. That can give you many kilowatts of power, more than enough for an entire house. However, that is difficult - since those voltage levels are dangerous, car companies make it very, very hard to get access to those voltages.

The second best way is to use the 12V battery. In an electric car, as long as it's 'on' the 12V power comes from a DC/DC converter that is good for 70-100 amps. That's about 1000 watts at 12 volts. So you can connect a 12V inverter to the car's 12V battery (which is very easy to get to) and get about 1000 watts of AC power, as long as the car's on. The DC/DC draws from the car's traction battery which is the big one. So if you had an average load of 500 watts (i.e. a refrig, some lights, cellphone charger, a fan) then you'd last 5 days on the battery from a Chevy Bolt EV.

BTW -

First things first. I kind of don't like the idea of having to buy my own generator.

I gotta say they are getting very cheap. And some, like the Honda eu2200i, are very quiet.

 

[Michael 345]

Burying the power lines underground (as many communities do) seems like a pretty good solution. They aren't buried in my area unfortunately.

Darwin Australia took this approach after Christmas day Cyclone Tracy 1974

All new suburbs have underground power

While some pre 1974 suburbs were converted from overhead to underground there are still a few overhead sections remaining with no activity seen to change the situation

 

[Michael 345]

I gotta say they are getting very cheap. And some, like the Honda eu2200i, are very quiet.

After Darwin cyclone Tracy 1974 as part of the rebuilding of the house I lived in at that time I had installed a small independent power circuit, totally isolated from the city grid

The few internal power points had distinctive colours and required a external connection to be used

This was achieved via a external caravan style input plug built into a outside wall

I constructed a small shed with a block inside on which I placed a small generator

In the shed were extension lead to connect to the house and others to use within the house

Never got to use and don't even know if the set up has been maintained

Hope to duplicate my effort in current house soon

 

[billvon]

Burying the power lines underground (as many communities do) seems like a pretty good solution.

If your risk is wind rather than flooding, then burying power lines is a great solution. (That's usually what we do here.) But in flood-prone areas, utility poles can be both more reliable and safer.

 

[wegs]

Incoming rant:

lol The news stations are warning all of Florida, to have 7 days of food and water. lololol

I can't ...yes, all of Florida is at risk for this hurricane. Sure. Whatever you say. Yea, I'll sit in my house, held hostage for seven days, no shower...eating canned food. What? Why would an entire state lose power?

I live on the west coast side of FL, and I'm sorry but I'm not panicking like everyone else. It's absolutely pandemonium here...

I would love to work for the weather station...where you can get paid to make wild assumptions, and be colossally wrong.

So between today and next week...this really big storm called Hurriance Dorian is going to be ...umm....maybe a CAT 3 or 4? And will hit Miami, and maybe south Florida...and maybe Orlando...oh shoot...maybe the entire state. Yea, we don't know...so just buy a bunch of shit you'll never need or use. Get all your money out...and act like the end of the world is coming. And you should be good.

That's pretty much, what the weather stations are babbling right now.

 

[gmilam]

It's the media's job to sell fear.

On the other hand, it's always a good idea to have a case of bottled water on hand.

 

[billvon]

I would love to work for the weather station...where you can get paid to make wild assumptions, and be colossally wrong.

Well, in their defense, if they say "OMG there's a monster storm coming! All of Florida needs 7 days of supplies!" then if the storm turns out to be a dud, then people . . . have a bunch of extra cans. But if they say "no big deal, it's slowing, it will probably miss" and the storm turns into a cat-5 that hits Miami dead center - then a lot of people could end dead. So I can see a reason to favor one extreme over the other.

 

[wegs]

It's the media's job to sell fear.

And a new batch of 300k people move every year to Florida so I feel they’re taking advantage. A CAT 1 is huge to someone who has never experienced a hurricane.

On the other hand, it's always a good idea to have a case of bottled water on hand.

Of course.

Well, in their defense, if they say "OMG there's a monster storm coming! All of Florida needs 7 days of supplies!" then if the storm turns out to be a dud, then people . . . have a bunch of extra cans. But if they say "no big deal, it's slowing, it will probably miss" and the storm turns into a cat-5 that hits Miami dead center - then a lot of people could end dead. So I can see a reason to favor one extreme over the other.

I hear you but all of Florida is not in peril.

 

[DaveC426913]

I can't ...yes, all of Florida is at risk for this hurricane. Sure. Whatever you say. Yea, I'll sit in my house, held hostage for seven days, no shower...eating canned food. What? Why would an entire state lose power?

They don't know where the hurricane will make landfall, or when, or what force it will be, or how it will track after it makes landfall.

The warning covers places that are at risk of hurricane damage - which is everywhere. No one said the entire state would get hit.

If you get hit, and didn't prepare, it doesn't matter that the other 99% of the state didn't get hit.

 

[wegs]

And while I'm at it, I'm going to blame Trump. He is broadcasting how everyone is in danger, how the ''storm is a monster.'' Sure, it is...if you live on the east coast...if you're in the heart of central Florida. But, not the entire state.

Trump.

 

[DaveC426913]

Sure, it is...if you live on the east coast...if you're in the heart of central Florida. But, not the entire state.

 

[wegs]

They don't know where the hurricane will make landfall, or when, or what force it will be, or how it will track after it makes landfall.

The warning covers places that are at risk of hurricane damage - which is everywhere. No one said the entire state would get hit.

I live here, and the news stations are broadcasting how ''everyone in Florida'' should have 7 days of food and water, stocked up. I'm on the west coast, and I'm not doing it.

They are predicting with some certainty that it will hit Miami/West Palm Beach, Dave. CAT 4 prediction. It should dissipate as it moves into the state.

So you'd be panicking...stocking up for days...acting like you're gonna be trapped in your house when you live far away from where it might hit? If you'd do that, why? Why give in to the panic?

 

[billvon]

I hear you but all of Florida is not in peril.

Agreed - but I don't think anyone is really saying that that all of Florida is at risk. The governor said that "every Florida resident should have seven days of supplies, including food, water and medicine, and should have a plan in case of disaster" - which is probably a good general plan for a state hit by hurricanes often, but could have been interpreted as meaning that everywhere in Florida is about to be a disaster.

He also said that "it’s important for Floridians on the East Coast to monitor this storm closely." An emergency-plan director said that "because of the uncertainty in the track of this storm, every resident along the East Coast needs to be ready" and listed the counties that had been covered by the emergency declaration. That included Miami-Dade and Palm Beach but not Sarasota (west coast) or Leon (Tallahasse.)