Improved non stop engine

[thinhnghiem]

No problem - it's mutual . It's true thinhnghiem did specify in #1:

However in order to observe, one must enter the room and approach. That means creating a wake of invisible air eddies that may not be noticeable but that a delicately balanced 'dragon-fly' is capable of responding to. Hence placing some kind of dome over the setup is likely the key mod that will settle things IF adopted. Walking in will additionally induce some ground vibration, but my guess is that would be a negligible factor. Just to be sure, soft bed pillow rather than earlier suggested foam rubber should provide adequate vibration damping & isolation.

Hi Q-reeus,

I have applied actions to prevent actions as your saying.

After closing all dorrs and windows, I have put the dragonfly onto the pivot first, to make sure it stands motionlessly. Then I shifted the big magnet closer to it to cause effect

All steps like moving far of tthe table slightly, or stop breathing etc.. have been applied

 

[Q-reeus]

Hi Q-reeus,
I have applied actions to prevent actions as your saying.

Does that include at least placing setup inside a sealed box or equivalently placing a dome of sorts over it? Need not be all transparent - you could just have one part transparent as viewing porthole, but idea is to eliminate chance of draughts totally. Below doesn't read like you have done that.

After closing all dorrs and windows, I have put the dragonfly onto the pivot first, to make sure it stands motionlessly. Then I shifted the big magnet closer to it to cause effect

Well moving one magnet closer to the others will be you adding energy - net magnetic potential energy of system is altered by changing relative positions. That counts as a kick-start.

All steps like moving far of tthe table slightly, or stop breathing etc.. have been applied

Don't stop breathing too long! Anyway, what are you saying? That the dragonfly just keeps rocking same as before? For hours at least? With no disturbing air motion guaranteed as per above?

If that is the case, do you have some theory to explain? Because at those creeping motion speeds, everything should be perfectly accounted for by interaction of purely magnetostatic forces, inertia, and gravity - not counting friction for now. You are aware that those magnetostatic forces can be exactly modeled as though equivalent springs were connecting between dragonfly and external magnet stand? And that just like with such springs, one has conservative interactions, meaning through a complete cycle of motion, there is zero net change in energy? Except as others and myself have said, friction and other losses will be robbing a tiny amount each cycle. Unless some mysterious and hugely unlikely source of compensating negative resistance can be identified!

 

[kwhilborn]

I do not see why people are doubting the OP here. It is a nice little science project, but nothing more.

This project and many similar involve magnets. This machine will eventually stop because there is more than one magnet interacting with each other, and they will alter each other over time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFGiWiXMHn0

Machines using magnets as power are not new, nor are they perpetual motion.

This is not created Energy, and energy still cannot be created or destroyed.

I do not understand the seriousness of criticisms in this thread. Why not explain how magnets interacting lose permanance?

Am I wrong here. The seriousness here baffles me more than the object does.

 

[Q-reeus]

I do not see why people are doubting the OP here. It is a nice little science project, but nothing more.

This project and many similar involve magnets. This machine will eventually stop because there is more than one magnet interacting with each other, and they will alter each other over time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFGiWiXMHn0

Machines using magnets as power are not new, nor are they perpetual motion.

This is not created Energy, and energy still cannot be created or destroyed.

I do not understand the seriousness of criticisms in this thread. Why not explain how magnets interacting lose permanance?

Am I wrong here. The seriousness here baffles me more than the object does.

Hysteresis as 'gain mechanism' rather than extra loss mechanism, even allowing there is no violation of conservation of energy implied, seems very unlikely, and certainly wouldn't allow anything like the seeming output shown there. May I suggest:
Don't read too much of below linked articles - enough to get the history line right.
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=54752
http://pesn.com/2010/04/24/9501640_Michael_J_Brady_arrested_for_embezzlement/

[In the case of dragonfly toy, relatively widely separated neo magnets (very high coercive fields) appear used, and any demagnetizing effects will be vanishingly small. Even for cheaper ferrite magnets, close spacing required for any appreciable demagnetizing - and the phasing from hysteresis is invariably such as to add to losses - i.e. heat is the byproduct of such demagnetizing.]

 

[mikelizzi]

Oscillate? Maybe. Oscillate forever? No way in hot lava.

It amazes me how many people appear to find conservation of energy such a difficult concept.

What makes you think I don't believe in conservation of energy? Do I have to explicitly say that a pendulum eventually comes to a stop? The posters to this thread are making wild guesses because they they, and perhaps you, don't recognize the physics at work. Once you recognize that it's a pendulum exchanging energy between gravitational and magnetic fields then the resolution should be obvious. Friction will eventually bring the pendulum to a stop. The suggestions of air currents or random vibrations are silly.

 

[Q-reeus]

The posters to this thread are making wild guesses because they they, and perhaps you, don't recognize the physics at work...The suggestions of air currents or random vibrations are silly.

Oh. Thought we had a mutual understanding, but seems not. The OP has made a very clear claim - dragonfly toy keeps rocking for at least better part of a day without noticeable slowing. So unless you are accusing him of outright lying, then I would say it is silly to claim dissipation could be that extraordinarily low to account for OP's claim. For a few minutes silent observation yes, but not 'overnight' and continuing. Air damping from rocking wings in particular would not allow that - try your own experiment with a pendulum incorporating a flat strip of plastic say. And by the same token, those wings will readily react to any stray air currents.
Much more likely there is an inadvertent external input involved - air currents most likely, from e.g. motion of observer, opening/closing door etc. - coupled with wishful thinking, that is needed to account for imo an honest but mistaken report by OP.

 

[kwhilborn]

@ Q-reeus,

I think you misread my post. I was not endorsing this. I was saying why doubt a magnet based machine could run overnight in some cases.

I had not reviewed the video I gave, but assumed it was a fake perpetual motion machine based on magnets like the one in the OP.

I realize that it is the "pendulum" providing the kinetic force for the smaller field to enter the larger opposing field, but also the gravity from the head forcing the tail. I do not imply that it will run forever and have stated that. Devices contrived from magnets have been shown to have the ability to run for a very long time despite my bad choice in videos.

[video]http://video.agaclip.com/w=SA7SMcLYNPc[/video]
here is one

as long as gravity keeps forcing the magnet into that large field I can see the movement, and am not surprised it ran all night. I did say it was a curious science experiment and nothing more.

I do not believe in perpetual motion devices. I also believe the device in the OP would find a balance between the magnetic power and the gravity and stop. Perhaps a device like this could go through the night, but it would need to be very light.

 

[Aqueous Id]

I let my model there overnight to make sure that there is no stopping. And luckily it does not stop until now.

It will stop.

Your belief that a permanent magnet contains magnet "energy" that you are converting to motion is wrong from the start. You will eventually realize that you have wasted your time trying to prove a false hypothesis. There is no such energy in a magnet. Somehow you have convinced yourself that there is. At some point, after spending many hours (or even years) proving yourself wrong, you will be forced to accept that this was incorrect from the beginning. At that point it would be best for you to try to study science and learn the laws of motion, and what magnetism really is. It can save you a lot of time and trouble.

 

[Q-reeus]

@ Q-reeus,

I had not reviewed the video I gavve, but assumed it was a fake perpetual motion machine based on magnets like the one in the OP.

Yes I understood that much.

I realize that it is the "pendulum" providing the kinetic force for the smaller field to enter the larger opposing field, but also the gravity from the head forcing the tail. I do not imply that it will run forever and have stated that.

Ditto, except you are evidently still believing the motion comes from 'running down' of the energy stored in magnets.

Devices contrived from magnets have been shown to have the ability to run for a very long time despite my bad choice in videos.
http://video.agaclip.com/w=SA7SMcLYNPc
here is one

Wow - great intro! That had me for a little while. Until I realized it must be faked, if for no other reason because ostensibly there is no closed circuit involved for the coil. Hence no appreciable current can be induced in the coil. Hence it simply *cannot* be functioning as some kind of electric motor even if a weird 'negative hysteresis' is hypothesized to exist in 'monopolar' magnet (no such thing as a monopolar magnet btw). Geoff/Jeff is pulling our legs here - and he did add at the end "it usually is (too good to be true)". So one wonders about that wooden board - was it just a wooden board? Or really a circuit board in disguise? I suspect the latter. Video fakery as last option.

as long as gravity keeps forcing the magnet into that large field I can see the movement, and am not surprised it ran all night. I did say it was a curious science experiment and nothing more.
I do not believe in perpetual motion devices.

Good for you. But my comments re magnetic hysteresis as extra loss mechanism still stand. It's a significant component in power transformer loss for instance. Check out:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/solids/hyst.html

I have come across one folk-lore claim of 'genuine' negative hysteresis developed by a German inventor pre WW2 that supposedly British intelligence investigated seriously after the war. Attempts to replicate have unsurprisingly been unsuccessful, and one suspects it was a clever psyops exercise - maybe to get the Russians running in circles. And I maintain that for dragonfly there will be no measurable hysteresis present - magnets are too far separated for one thing.

 

[thinhnghiem]

It will stop.

Your belief that a permanent magnet contains magnet "energy" that you are converting to motion is wrong from the start. You will eventually realize that you have wasted your time trying to prove a false hypothesis. There is no such energy in a magnet. Somehow you have convinced yourself that there is. At some point, after spending many hours (or even years) proving yourself wrong, you will be forced to accept that this was incorrect from the beginning. At that point it would be best for you to try to study science and learn the laws of motion, and what magnetism really is. It can save you a lot of time and trouble.

Why not. The magnetic field of magnet keeps on released, and the interaction force between the big magnet and magnet sticked to the toy makes the toy moving

 

[Read-Only]

Why not. The magnetic field of magnet keeps on released, and the interaction force between the big magnet and magnet sticked to the toy makes the toy moving

Because the length of the swings will slowly, slowly decrease and eventually it will reach a point where all the magnetic forces precisely balance out and the device will stop moving - provided it's not influenced by some external force.

 

[Q-reeus]

Why not. The magnetic field of magnet keeps on released, and the interaction force between the big magnet and magnet sticked to the toy makes the toy moving

Have you done what I suggested and fully enclosed 'dragonfly' inside a closed box or dome cover (exterior magnet can be outside), and THEN repeated test?

 

[thinhnghiem]

@ Q-reeus,

I think you misread my post. I was not endorsing this. I was saying why doubt a magnet based machine could run overnight in some cases.

I had not reviewed the video I gave, but assumed it was a fake perpetual motion machine based on magnets like the one in the OP.

I realize that it is the "pendulum" providing the kinetic force for the smaller field to enter the larger opposing field, but also the gravity from the head forcing the tail. I do not imply that it will run forever and have stated that. Devices contrived from magnets have been shown to have the ability to run for a very long time despite my bad choice in videos.

[video]http://video.agaclip.com/w=SA7SMcLYNPc[/video]
here is one

as long as gravity keeps forcing the magnet into that large field I can see the movement, and am not surprised it ran all night. I did say it was a curious science experiment and nothing more.

I do not believe in perpetual motion devices. I also believe the device in the OP would find a balance between the magnetic power and the gravity and stop. Perhaps a device like this could go through the night, but it would need to be very light.

Great. You have excellent explantion for my case. Yes, maybe it will not go forever. And of course I am not patience enough to use my whole life time just for examining it. My saying is, at least it runs for a very long time. It's good.

No need to invent anything new to be giant. Sometimes we just repeat and improve existing issue to get high achievement

 

[thinhnghiem]

Have you done what I suggested and fully enclosed 'dragonfly' inside a closed box or dome cover (exterior magnet can be outside), and THEN repeated test?

Yes, the problem is that the plastic box is not quite transparent, and I have difficulty to watch anything inside.

Anyway, thing is still OK

 

[Q-reeus]

Yes, the problem is that the plastic box is not quite transparent, and I have difficulty to watch anything inside. Anyway, thing is still OK

One good thing here is you have it seems finally isolated dragonfly from any external breeze influence. So, let's get this clear. I take it from above comment and that in in #33, you are claiming that after just one initial push, dragonfly keeps rocking inside of sealed box for at least a day? With no noticeable drop in amplitude of oscillation? Is that all correct?

 

[thinhnghiem]

One good thing here is you have it seems finally isolated dragonfly from any external breeze influence. So, let's get this clear. I take it from above comment and that in in #33, you are claiming that after just one initial push, dragonfly keeps rocking inside of sealed box for at least a day? With no noticeable drop in amplitude of oscillation? Is that all correct?

I put it in the box and left it there over night to make sure it is OK. The spinning amplitude reduces at first, and finally it reaches a threshold (not stop moving) and keeps this status

 

[Q-reeus]

I put it in the box and left it there over night to make sure it is OK. The spinning amplitude reduces at first, and finally it reaches a threshold (not stop moving) and keeps this status

Really! Can you give an estimate of final amplitude when inside box, compared to when there was no box enclosing?

 

[thinhnghiem]

Really! Can you give an estimate of final amplitude when inside box, compared to when there was no box enclosing?

It had slow down. But it is my feeling only. I have no tool in hand to measure quantitatively

 

[Q-reeus]

It had slow down. But it is my feeling only. I have no tool in hand to measure quantitatively

I want to make it clear - there is no possibility that any enduring dragonfly motion is owing to energy somehow being extracted from the magnets. Can't happen. So we have a problem. How to explain this. Are you sure there are no vibrations from traffic, tremors, walking around etc. that might be amplified by table and that longish stand that dragonfly perches on? Also, could external magnet-on-carton be rocking about owing to vibrations or breeze? If so, motion of that magnet will transfer to generating some dragonfly motion. So how stable is that carton against rocking movement?

 

[thinhnghiem]

I want to make it clear - there is no possibility that any enduring dragonfly motion is owing to energy somehow being extracted from the magnets. Can't happen. So we have a problem. How to explain this. Are you sure there are no vibrations from traffic, tremors, walking around etc. that might be amplified by table and that longish stand that dragonfly perches on? Also, could external magnet-on-carton be rocking about owing to vibrations or breeze? If so, motion of that magnet will transfer to generating some dragonfly motion. So how stable is that carton against rocking movement?

Hi Q-reeus,

As I said in my description, there is small magnet at the tail of the dragonfly. Its weight lift the tail down. And the repulsion force between this magnet and the big magnet raised the tail up. Things go on makes the dragonfly moving up, down, up down, .....