Immigration Crisis or an Economic Opportunity?

[Michael]

Hungary certainly does have an anti-immigration fence.

These are usually referred to as boarders. My door is called my door. It allows me the option of choosing my guests. Yes, my door may block random people from making themselves home, in my home. We call it a door though, not an anti-visiting guest blockage.

Hungry is not 'anti' immigration. They have a boarder, it allows for rule of law regarding a number of things, such as preventing child rape and theft. As well as internal laws such as property rights and even currency.

But hey, if we're calling things new names, how about the Hungarian anti-just-walk-into-the-country-and-rape-and-pillage-on-your-way-to-milk-the-German-Welfare-System-fence?

 

[wegs]

I do agree that a crisis, may give way to opportunity. Not always. Not for those Germans who have been raped, which is occurring almost daily. A child rape survivor isn't really giving way to opportunity in any manner proportional to the price paid. Will someone in the medical field have more work? Maybe. A governmental institution given access to more resources? Possibly, at the expense of a cut from elsewhere. Not the sort of opportunity that is beneficial IMO. As a matter of fact, I cannot think of any opportunities that will be proportionally a net win-win for most Germans or Swedes. Maybe some new foods that are slightly more authentic? Okay, sure, although this is more of a skilled migrant entry category. High skills? Well, again, legal entry is the means of entry for Germany to gain access to people with those skills.

For example, most refugees cannot read or write (in any language), they will compete against low skilled Germans for low skilled employment. Reducing the wage, a win for the employer, and the refugee - not for the German who will miss out on getting a foot on the ladder. There is evidence that this is happening in Sweden.


There's nothing wrong with high skilled migration, but this isn't that. And that is what Germany needs. This may actually act to deter high skilled migrants who may have otherwise come to Germany. Many won't want to live in a multicultureal Germany. If they want a dangerous multicultreal society, best to just move to the USA. More opportunity, possibly better living quarter (house and land) and better pay.

Well, good points, but the opportunity lies not on the backs of people's misery, no...but rather on the fact that something is very broken in this process, and until we hit bottom sometimes (a collective global 'we' so to speak) we can't find answers to such problems in order to bring about change. A crisis is often the catalyst for opportunity in this regard.

 

[Michael]

The mid eastern immigrant males are not accustomed to seeing pretty girls walking alone at night. They assume bad things about them.

I'm sorry BillyT but this is absolute bullshit. If you think refugees are too f*cking stupid to know better than to rape, then I really don't know what to say. Refugees DO KNOW it is not legal or appropriate to rape children and young girls. They're not animals. Your post sounds as if they have no agency of their own. They're humans. Some are good people. Some are bad people. I heard a Syrian berating a German for such a suggestion, and she made the same damn point, THEY know what they're doing is evil and wrong. They don't give a shit. Many came to Germany specifically to rape, buy prostitutes and to sell drugs.

For the most part, many are normal, just looking to scam the German Welfare State. See most of America for other examples of this sort of behavior. It's probably more common than you'd like to think in multicultural societies - where trust is lowest.

It will take at least a decade before they adopt the German culture, especially towards women. They will be a burden on the social welfare system for a few years. They are not expected to be an immediate benefit to the German economy.

We'll see. I'd suggest generations at best.
If.
My guess is they will never integrate and their decedents will be more conservative than their parents. And why not? Germany is now "multicultural". Not German culture - multiple cultures inside Germany.

80% of Turkish Muslims Settlers in Germany Live Off Welfare

Bye Bye Germany, hello whatever the future holds. And, thank you, you are setting a wonderful example to the World. It's good too. Now we can compare Japan to Germany in 25 years and see which solution to The Baby's worked best to create a safe kind caring society to raise the next generation of people.

 

[Michael]

Well, good points, but the opportunity lies not on the backs of people's misery, no...but rather on the fact that something is very broken in this process, and until we hit bottom sometimes (a collective global 'we' so to speak) we can't find answers to such problems in order to bring about change. A crisis is often the catalyst for opportunity in this regard.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Though, I do wonder if the Planet's ecosystems can withstand the level of bottoming required to return to some level of sanity. And, as I have seen with my own eyes, the speed at which people normalize to depravity, really makes you appreciate civil society all the more. The efforts required to maintain it, are enormous.

There's also technology, that could be a game changer.

 

[Michael]

From: New Philosopher
Feb-april, 2016
Here Comes The Real Digital Revolution

In the summer of 2015 the CEO of one of the largest industrial corporations in the world gave a speech at an exclusive private dinner for the wealthy and powerful in Germany. In the question-and-answer period, the CEO was asked about the use of robots in manufacturing and whether they were a realistic prospect in the future. The CEO informed the audience that his company already had one fully automated factory, and had the technology in hand to immediately convert all of its factories worldwide to being fully automated. The major factor that deterred them from doing so was not economic – it made perfect economic sense to do so – but political: converting to fully automated factories would throw at least 40 per cent of their total workforce, much of it still based in Germany, into the unemployment lines. “If we did that,” he said, “the middle class in Germany would burn.”

--O--
Even middle skilled Germans, with strong moral character and work ethic, are on the verge of losing their jobs. As for what millions of regressive superstitious, low skilled illegals economic migrants, of unknown moral character, are going to do for Germans economy, I'd say compete for limited resources against a slowly dying out Ethnic German population. A story as old as time.

Even now, German children must go with less, so that illegal immigrants can be taken care of.

A recipe for long-term success I'm sure. Or, a great way to eliminate the Social Welfare State and EU project. Which, ironically, will probably result in a backlash against democracy itself.

Karmic in a way.

 

[wegs]

You took the words right out of my mouth. Though, I do wonder if the Planet's ecosystems can withstand the level of bottoming required to return to some level of sanity.

Meh, we're all still standing, against all the odds, mankind has survived all this time. Considering all that's transpired on the planet, and to the planet, we are still here by a ...miracle?

And, as I have seen with my own eyes, the speed at which people normalize to depravity, really makes you appreciate civil society all the more.

Depends on how one defines civil. The US has a pretty high violence rate, but our laws are such that people are incarcerated when they commit crimes, unlike some other parts of the world. Does that make us civil?

There's also technology, that could be a game changer.

How do you see it?

 

[Michael]

Meh, we're all still standing, against all the odds, mankind has survived all this time. Considering all that's transpired on the planet, and to the planet, we are still here by a ...miracle?

I suppose I was thinking along the lines of what might have been. Germany and EU in general played a huge part in the Enlightenment and post-modern Era. To watch them seemingly sacrifice their culture on the bonfires of WWII guilt, is sort of sad. Particularly when the empirical evidence suggests almost all of the most important propositions are incorrect. But, we'll see.

Depends on how one defines civil. The US has a pretty high violence rate, but our laws are such that people are incarcerated when they commit crimes, unlike some other parts of the world. Does that make us civil?

Historically, we've taken a step back towards the trend-line. That being less civil rights and thus, less of a civil society.

How do you see it?

I imagine we'll be genetically manipulating our DNA within 25 years. And probably immortal within 50. At least biologically. By 100 years, we may even be uploading our consciousness to a virtual world. Who knows? Play your cards right, you may be an immortal

I only wish the Japanese would get on board. They will if they see the USA and China going in that direction. As it stands, Japanese have a strong desire to see life end. Like a cherry blossom. Without death, life has little to no meaning. We should blossom into life, bloom, and then fall away. Sadly, the real end to life is more bleach and ammonia than a poetic bloom of a sakura tree.

Overall, I have a positive outlook on the future. Thanks to technology, I think it's getting better every year

 

[Billy T]

... Thanks to technology, I think it's getting better every year

What happened to the Michael we knew, who saw the PTB using technology, especially communication means, like TV to exploit and enslave the sheep masses?

 

[wegs]

Unless the world turns into a utopia, I don’t wish to be immortal, Michael. Lol

 

[iceaura]

Germany and EU in general played a huge part in the Enlightenment and post-modern Era. To watch them seemingly sacrifice their culture on the bonfires of WWII guilt, is sort of sad

Yeah, that's when the Germans sacrificed their culture - not in the launching of WWII, but in postwar guilt over - - - - - over what, exactly? "WWII" is kind of vague, as a reference. Whatever could we be talking about?

And, as I have seen with my own eyes, the speed at which people normalize to depravity, really makes you appreciate civil society all the more. The efforts required to maintain it, are enormous.

And its enemies are both serious and powerful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shock_Doctrine

The CEO informed the audience that his company already had one fully automated factory, and had the technology in hand to immediately convert all of its factories worldwide to being fully automated. The major factor that deterred them from doing so was not economic – it made perfect economic sense to do so – but political: converting to fully automated factories would throw at least 40 per cent of their total workforce, much of it still based in Germany, into the unemployment lines. “If we did that,” he said, “the middle class in Germany would burn.”

Taking the little fairy tale for real: So how would such a man, with billions in potential profits staring him in the face, go about getting the German people to accept such an event?

 

[Michael]

The nice thing about this little experiment, is we have Japan to act as a control State. Given they have extremely low immigration rates and nearly zero refugees. Thus, in 25 years, when Germanstan and Londonstan and Swedenstan are all Democratic Socialist Utopias, where religious tolerance is cherished as a core value, where children can walk freely day and night, where rape and assault and violence is almost at zero, where women are treated equitably and there's no race tensions, where slums are a distant memory and people fly around with little wings attached to their backs to get from here to there, we can look over at the poor ignorant monocultureal Japanese and their backwards-violent Buddhist mud-hut society and say: See, we told you so!

 

[Michael]

What happened to the Michael we knew, who saw the PTB using technology, especially communication means, like TV to exploit and enslave the sheep masses?

LOL

Well, here's Kurzweil's take on things to come. Seems to him, that biotechnology and computing will bring unprecedented levels of prosperity within our lifetimes - which will probably begin to extend far into the future.

We'll see

 

[Michael]

Social Diversity correlates strongly with a decrease in trust, decrease in altruism, less social cohesion, less social participation, support for more authoritarianism, and may lead to early onset of puberty.

Here's someone chatting about some of the studies:

 

[iceaura]

The nice thing about this little experiment, is we have Japan to act as a control State. Given they have extremely low immigration rates and nearly zero refugees.

And are conveniently located many miles of ocean distant from non-Japanese societies.

And have enforced rules preventing their corporate honchos from importing cheap labor.

And are Democratic Socialists, so that variable is eliminated.

So we have an experiment here: what are the effects of allowing capitalist corporations to import cheap foreign labor?

Social Diversity correlates strongly with a decrease in trust, decrease in altruism, less social cohesion, less social participation, support for more authoritarianism, and may lead to early onset of puberty

So does corporate capitalism.

 

[Billy T]

Well, here's Kurzweil's take on things to come. Seems to him, that biotechnology and computing will bring unprecedented levels of prosperity within our lifetimes .

A quite possible extrapolation of current trends AND a good reason not to be in a hurry to send many dozens of men and women to colonize Mars, at huge expense with current technology, which can not also return them. If we need a "life boat" for humanity it should be on the moon, for many reasons I have listed; including about 95% efficiency conversion of solar energy, less than a week travel time vs. 7 to 17 months long support trips (100 or so needed) during the decades needed for the colony to become self-sufficient.

Mars will still be there for the smarter /more capable than men AI systems to explore in and after 2050.

 

[Billy T]

Can not kill duplicate

 

[Michael]

And are conveniently located many miles of ocean distant from non-Japanese societies.

And have enforced rules preventing their corporate honchos from importing cheap labor.

And are Democratic Socialists, so that variable is eliminated.

So we have an experiment here: what are the effects of allowing capitalist corporations to import cheap foreign labor?

I have agreed numerous times in monocultureal societies, with high standards and good values (Japan, Germany, Sweden, Norway, etc...) that the State will often align with what the free market would have determined. Or so I would imagine. This is the thing, we can't know. Just like you cannot know the value I place on my coffee cup. Incidentally, that coffee cup is from a set of 5. It's often mistaken as a red peace of gaudy plastic. Possibly worth 5 cents. Perhaps a free cup I was given with take out.

But this is the thing, the term "society" is an abstract generalization - and a poor one. Kind of like, the 'life force of the forest'. It's just plain nonsense. In the real world there are individual plants, trees, birds, animals. Each doing their own thing - individually. In the real world, there are real police officers, real citizens, who are really dead, because very real bullets, shot by agents of the State, killed them.

Think about this, since the State started the Drug War, chemical addiction has gone UP. Not down. Up. Medical error has gone UP. Not down. Up. We now have MD's who specialize in 'pain management' who have effectively become drug lords. We have Welfare ghettos where Drugs and Crime are a way of life. And now we have a Police State. Literally, the NSA is now spying on all of us - it's right out of Nineteen Eighty-Four. And the worse part is, most drug dependents are dealing with childhood trauma. Everything from sexual abuse to verbal and physical abuse. A few National Unions (Police and Guards) are pushing their Democratic Representative to maintain the illegality of marijuana - because it's good for business, their business. That of shooting abuse victims and then jailing them in rape cages.

I didn't say Japan aren't Statist Authoritarians. Or that they couldn't derive some level of economic prosperity from 'Democratic' Socialism. I said it's immoral. And it is. Worse than that, because money is replaced by fiat currency, the price mechanism is distorted. It'd be like seeing the world through the bottom of a coke bottle. Thus, Japanese had too many children. Now those children have to work for the crony companies that exist now, instead of the ones that could have been - which, in a free market, would have been better. How do we know? Because when people compete for labor-hours, laborer's choose the places they like to work at. Which is one of the reasons why the USA, Germany and Sweden want a lot of unskilled, I'll work for next to nothing, laborer's to flood into our 'markets'. Well, we'll see how that works out. Oh, and that retirement many Japanese had counted on happening. Didn't for most. Which is okay, the elderly would rather work until the end, than see their culture degraded with lesser standards, unwanted behaviors and idiotic superstitions that have never been a part of and have no place in Japanese society. One would think of it as penitence for using the State.

But, sure, overall life in Japan is pretty damn good. AND? It could be better. Much better. It's only good because individual Japanese make it that way - and there's a lot of them.

That said, let's see how German and Sweden deal with losing what little edge they had in the price mechanism, when they had good values and high standards. Yeah, how will they deal with a "society" where a significant number of individuals lie, cheap, steal, hit their children, and believe superstitious non-sense. It is my hypothesis, they'll become just like us, and for the exact reasons.

So does corporate capitalism.

Corporations are legal entities defined into existence by the State. They're shields against the individuals who would have otherwise been liable. Which is why, when the GFC happened, the richest Bankers (many of whom are now crooked and/or unscrupulous SlumLords) didn't go to jail. No. Instead the State bailed them out with generations of debt obligations. We're seeing the effect of / the affected first generation right now. The Millennials. But make no mistake, there's many more to come after that. Well, that is, until Dear Leader, Redistributor The Great

Or, something else. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[Michael]

Mars will still be there for the smarter /more capable than men AI systems to explore in and after 2050.

Let's hope we're part of that exploration too

And be we, I mean, us.

 

[iceaura]

Corporations are legal entities defined into existence by the State.

So is everything else involved in market capitalism - from the market and the capital on up.

They're shields against the individuals who would have otherwise been liable.

So you envision a State capable of determining liability amid the details of economic transactions, and holding the rich and powerful accountable, in your imaginary free market world.

I didn't say Japan aren't Statist Authoritarians. Or that they couldn't derive some level of economic prosperity from 'Democratic' Socialism. I said it's immoral.

So the experiment you are describing is involves three Democratic Socialist States, and the comparison is between the more Authoritarian one - Japan, rigidly protecting its borders and micro-managing its residential culture - and two less Authoritarian ones, slack enough to allow potentially damaging cultural diversity among their citizens.

 

[Michael]

So is everything else involved in market capitalism - from the market and the capital on up.
So you envision a State capable of determining liability amid the details of economic transactions, and holding the rich and powerful accountable, in your imaginary free market world.
So the experiment you are describing is involves three Democratic Socialist States, and the comparison is between the more Authoritarian one - Japan, rigidly protecting its borders and micro-managing its residential culture - and two less Authoritarian ones, slack enough to allow potentially damaging cultural diversity among their citizens.

No, all three are Authoritarian States. IMO the only real difference is that as reality came crashing in, only the Japanese had the wherewithal to deal with it realistically. Apparently, Japanese still value their culture enough to make personal sacrifices in their life to maintain and protect it. Personal sacrifice isn't really a part of Western me me me now now now culture. Essentially, all three nations were run by Progressive Socialists (a Chinese once said to me that in Nanjing there was a saying, if you want to know what Communism is like, move to Japan) and all three where reaching the mathematical endpoint where it has become evident they cannot meet the promised obligations. All three, Sweden, Germany and Japan, seem to be the ideal examples of societies where Democratic Socialism fits well culturally. Particularly because people are hard working, smart, and honest.

A SlumLord looking to make a killing off the poor Japanese who lost everything during the tsunami would probably be socially ostracized. Maybe to the point where they're have to commit suicide to make up for their bad actions. In the USA on the other hand, Americans are still picking the houses off the poor in Flint and Detroit, during Katrina, the Government did next to nothing, and Americans made money selling bottled water to the starving. Many of those trapped in safe-centers were raped, stolen from, abused, etc.... That shit just doesn't happen in Japan. And probably didn't happen in Germany or Sweden. But, wait 25 years, then let's see.

Anyway, two totally different cultures. Slums do not exist in Japan. At all. As in, there is no place anywhere in the entire country where you would not feel perfectly safe walking alone night or day. Nothing like the USA. All of our major cities have slums, except maybe SF.