If you don't believe in evolution, you also can't believe in...

[SnakeLord]

Furthermore PM, that site's sources are themselves quite easy to debate. Here's an example or two:

The Guardian newspaper July 1980,
Physical Anthropology, (cambridge university press 1971)
Physical Anthropology 1970
The leakey footprints 1979

See what I mean about... outdated?

 

[Flores]

Are you a fucking idiot or something? We didn't derive from these animals. These animals and humans had the same ancestor. Try reading a book first MORON!

Don't worry spurious, he is not even reading the Quran that totally supports evolution.

The description of deep oceans and fire beneath the seas indicates the importance of deep sea vents (black smokers) which have been discovered about 30 years ago. The liquid magma from the mantle of the Earth flows through cracks between the plateaus (rifts) and releases valuable minerals into the ocean. As everywhere, here is a delicate balance set up by Allah. The smoke is neither hot enough to evaporate the water above it nor is the water cool enough to extinguish the fire beneath it ("By the oceans set on fire" Quran). Scientists believe that they are the place of the origin of all life on Earth even before the light of the sun could penetrate the surface of the Earth. There are chemical bacteria (archaeobacteria) which live on these vents and win energy through the oxidization of Sulfur and not by photosynthesis with the help of light.

Monkeys, pigs, and other mammels are described in the Quran as degenerates, rejected, or left behind by the evolved human race. ("...be you apes and swine, despised and rejected").

This explains why muslims are prohibited from eating mammels such as monkeys and swines that are very close to our genetic structure. Forbidden food such as pork and monkeys can be scientificlly proven to be damaging in many ways. Pigs are impossible to slaughter, genetically close to man (cannibalism), have a high concentration of urine in the blood and muscles (attack the cells) high in human-like hormones (take over the system), pork gives arthritis, cancer, high cholesterol, digestive problems, stress, too much uncontraooled energy, parasites, etc.

Muslims as well are instructed to be more vegeterian and eat meat seldom. Our prophet used to eat meat once every fourty days. We are instructed to only eat animals that are away from us in the evolution process, precisely animals with split hooves that chewth the cud. As we all know, more evolved animals with complex designs like pigs, lions, ect......don't rechew the cud like cows do with their primitive four stomach digestive system.

While I agree that evolution exists, I disagree that it's a random selection process. I think the order of this universe is directing the evolution process through favoring a certain pre-designed setting. So I believe that god manages universal changes and evolution.

http://www.thecitycircle.com/docs/circle11aug00.html

 

[Bells]

You HOPELESS ATHIESTS attack the site the way you wishes, the fact that this site is now a REFERENCE when refuting the pathetic athiesm or the moronic evolution nonesense is enough certificate of its excellence.

Ok then PM, I'd like you to show us proof that God created the heavens, earth and all life on it. I want you to give us absolute proof. Not words written in the Quran, Bible or other text, but actual proof. Visible proof. Touchable proof. Tangible proof. I want you to prove that God did in fact create everything. And if you can prove all this, then all Churches and religions will bow to you as no-one as ever been able to show absolute proof that God did in fact create everything.

Evolutionists have proof through science, in the form of fossils, carbon dating, etc. Such proof is touchable, visible and tangible. And such proof is growing everyday with new discoveries. Your argument is as amusing as what one Christian once posted on here with a link to a site which went so far as to state that dinosaurs were firebreathing dragons which existed on earth 5000 years ago.

As regarding Muslims believing evolution !! where did you get that from James ????????

My biology teacher in high school was a muslim and was a firm believer in evolution . But then what could he possibly know? He only had a Phd in science and a Masters in archaeology.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

that's an interesting point actually. i didn't know that.
could you provide a reference for this?

yes:

http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/origin_of_man.html ( from the same HARUN YAHYA group ) www.harunyahya.com

http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/ ( again, it is Harun Yahya )

PM you surprise me. a good point from you at last.

I cant stand the Evolution NONESENSE, it is the time for all religious people to come together and wipe out the evolution once and for all...Harun Yahya is our MUSLIM contribution in that effort.

but still
something is "probably" "raising the possibility" ?
those are not most convincing arguments

Monkey or man? Toumai, hailed as our oldest ancestor, is stirring ancient scientific rivalries

Palaeontologists are going to war over whether bones discovered in African desert are of an ape or a proto-human

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,808955,00.html

In 2001, I read amazing article in The Independent ( British Newpaper ) about a skull discovered in Africa, it was the OLDEST ever found which PROVES that we were ALWAYS and since God created us HUMANS. this skull refuted with no doubt the evolution BULLSHIT.

Here is some articles about it:

Skull Fossil Opens Window Into Early Period of Human Origins

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/07/0710_020710_chadskull.html

Dont let these HOPLESS ATHIESTS intimidate you by their filthy mouthes and name calling...we are God believers, we have the truth, they have NOTHING.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

What are they made of then? Oh I know; made of spirit... spirits with human features, human names and feathered wings. Why would they need huge cumbersome wings if they were simply made of air? What about the others I mentioned, what are they made of?
And why are they all extinct?

Well, you have a christian background in your backmind when you talk about angels...

In Islam, we believe Angels are invisible, they have NO wings...you cant see them, they are made of light.

as to Satan, he is also invisible...do you see this one who whisper in your ear to do something bad ??? NO....well this whisperer is SATAN.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Ok then PM, I'd like you to show us proof that God created the heavens, earth and all life on it. I want you to give us absolute proof. Not words written in the Quran, Bible or other text, but actual proof. Visible proof. Touchable proof. Tangible proof.

SOMETHING DOES NOT COME FROM NOTHING. it is LOGIC.

beside, do you see the air you breath ?? NO

Do you see the electricity currents in your wires ? NO

Do you see the electrons orbeting around the matter ? NO

you dont see all these but YET you believe they exist....if you dont see something, it does not mean it does not exist.

My biology teacher in high school was a muslim and was a firm believer in evolution. But then what could he possibly know? He only had a Phd in science and a Masters in archaeology.

We Muslims believe in Evolution AFTER creation for animals.. first we were created as HUMANS...Allah Almighty created ADAM, the first man on earth, as HUMAN not as a fish who decided suddenly to leave the water into the earth and then evolve, this nonesense is only for the RETARDED people to believe in.

(The Noble Quran 24.45) And Allah has created every animal from water; of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills: for verily Allah has power over all things.

So the Quran agrees with science on the evolution of animals ONLY.

As For Humans:

''And certainly We created you, then We fashioned you, then We said to the angels: Prostrate to Adam. So they did prostrate except Iblis; he was not of those who prostrated. '' ( The Noble Quran 7:11 )

''And certainly We created man of clay that gives forth sound, of black mud fashioned in shape.'' ( The Noble Quran 15:26 )

''And when your Lord said to the angels: Surely I am going to create a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape. '' ( The Noble Quran 15:28 )

''So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down making obeisance to him.'' ( The Noble Quran 15:29 )

"It is He Who brings out the living from the dead, and brings out the dead from the living." (Surat ar-Rum: 19)

''Behold! In the creation of space and the Earth and in the changing of night into day are indeed signs for people of understanding. Those who remember Allah standing, sitting and lying down, and contemplate the (wonders) of creation in space and the Earth. (They declare,) "Our Lord! You didn’t create all of this for nothing. So save us from the punishment of the fire." (3:190-191)

''Wasn’t there a long period of time before humans were even mentioned?" (76:1)

''And certainly We have established you in the earth and made in it means of livelihood for you; little it is that you give thanks.'' 7:10

''He said: What hindered you so that you did not prostrate when I commanded you? He said: I am better than he: Thou hast created me of fire, while him Thou didst create of dust.'' 7:12

And finally, I believe The Quran because it is the word of God, I dont believe some man-made NONESENSE:

''It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad ) the Book (the Qur'ân). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, ... So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allâh. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of INTELLIGENCE'' (The Noble Quran 3:7 )

So you see bells, ALL the above verses from the Noble Quran REFUTE the evolution of humans...so if you are a person of intelligence you would believe the one who created those men who produced the evolution not the men themselves.

 

[Flores]

In Islam, we believe Angels are invisible, they have NO wings...you cant see them, they are made of light.

as to Satan, he is also invisible...do you see this one who whisper in your ear to do something bad ??? NO....well this whisperer is SATAN.

How could you make such claims? Have you ever seen an invisible angel? God himself in the Quran tells us all that we know nothing of the truth of creation? So how can you refute evolution? What if god actually created and utilized evolution? Noone is asking you to worship evolution, only to investigate and study something that may yeild merit.

I really advise you to read the following Quranic verse. It's one of the verse that I know by heart and recite often to myself. It's a grounding verse that humbles me and refocuses me whenever other muslims try to tell me that THEY KNOW IT ALL.

[2.255] Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot comprehend anything out of His knowledge except what He pleases, His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both tires Him not, and He is the Most High, the Great.

 

[SnakeLord]

I get the distinct impression that PM is ignoring me What's the matter PM, my refutations scaring you?

Pigs are impossible to slaughter, genetically close to man (cannibalism), have a high concentration of urine in the blood and muscles (attack the cells) high in human-like hormones (take over the system), pork gives arthritis, cancer, high cholesterol, digestive problems, stress, too much uncontraooled energy, parasites, etc

Lol. And whatever you're eating is giving you delusions. Quick question: You regard eating pigs as cannibalism.. tell me - if you kill a pig do you get tried for murder?

However, provide links and I'll take it into consideration. I did an extensive look and could find nothing other than food poisoning that comes from not cooking it properly, (which is true of most meats).

As we all know, more evolved animals with complex designs like pigs, lions, ect......don't rechew the cud like cows do with their primitive four stomach digestive system.

Lions are meat eaters and have no reason to chew the cud. The reason an animal chews the cud is because grass is a bitch to digest. As such, lions have no need to. It is not because they are any more evolved, they just don't eat grass.

 

[Flores]

I get the distinct impression that PM is ignoring me What's the matter PM, my refutations scaring you?



Lol. And whatever you're eating is giving you delusions. Quick question: You regard eating pigs as cannibalism.. tell me - if you kill a pig do you get tried for murder?

However, provide links and I'll take it into consideration. I did an extensive look and could find nothing other than food poisoning that comes from not cooking it properly, (which is true of most meats).

Why don't you research how mad cow diseace and AIDS got started. It might give you an insight on how cannibalism, inappropriate organic mixing can screw up the evolution process.

Did you know that the mass production of the dairy industry have gotten so greedy to the point that little calves are being separated from the mothers and given a milk formula made from cow enzymes and blood. This formula (cannibalism) is believed to have transmitted mad cow diseace by providing an excellent fertile ground for transmitting blood deficiencies.

And, I don't need to give you articles about anything. Everything I say is straight out of my butt. I'm on top of the evolution process, I don't need to step down and provide you with a literature research.

 

[Flores]

Lions are meat eaters and have no reason to chew the cud. The reason an animal chews the cud is because grass is a bitch to digest. As such, lions have no need to. It is not because they are any more evolved, they just don't eat grass.

But you believe in evolution from a common source, so you must believe that diet evolved and digestive systems have evolved as well. Everything consumes things that are simpler than it in genetic makeup. Ever seen how lions go mad and get addicted on sucking blood when they taste man? Once they eat man, they're addicted to our blood, and could eat nothing else, and become what's known as man eaters....The circle of life could be broken when we don't respect the food chain.

 

[Flores]

Lol. And whatever you're eating is giving you delusions.

Lol back at you.....Of course we are all becoming delusional because of what we eat.

Let me enlighten you my reptile friend.

The biotech industry's own unique formula for the future of the planet is now as follows:

(irresponsible and ignorant 'science')
+ (economic greed)
+ (political naivity on the ability to regulate)
+ (human error)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
= "recipe for disaster"

 

[SnakeLord]

Why don't you research how mad cow diseace and AIDS got started.

Neither of which has anything to do with pigs. You claimed pigs gave cancer, cause stress, arthritis and so on. AIDS and mad cows are thus... irrelevant.

Did you know that the mass production of the dairy industry have gotten so greedy to the point that little calves are being separated from the mothers and given a milk formula made from cow enzymes and blood. This formula (cannibalism) is believed to have transmitted mad cow diseace by providing an excellent fertile ground for transmitting blood deficiencies.

Yes, and that's all well and wonderful. However, that might be considered as cannibalism, but what has that got to do with humans eating pigs?

And, I don't need to give you articles about anything. Everything I say is straight out of my butt.

I agree.

I'm on top of the evolution process, I don't need to step down and provide you with a literature research.

Yeah..pigs cause AIDS :bugeye: Kindly re-read what I asked. I can't find any sites stating pigs cause cancer, stress or that they're impossible to kill. You made the statement, back it up.

But you believe in evolution from a common source, so you must believe that diet evolved and digestive systems have evolved as well. Everything consumes things that are simpler than it in genetic makeup. Ever seen how lions go mad and get addicted on sucking blood when they taste man? Once they eat man, they're addicted to our blood, and could eat nothing else, and become what's known as man eaters....The circle of life could be broken when we don't respect the food chain.

Wow, you can tell what I believe just by looking at my name? However, to answer your quote..

A) I must confess I don't get out as much as I would like, and as such haven't seen too many lions go mad while drinking human blood. Where can I go to see such a thing?

B) What has any of this got to do with pigs?

C) To your very first statement: "so you must believe that diet evolved and digestive systems have evolved as well."

Not entirely, no. A Tyrannosaurus rex was a pure meat eater, but there's nothing to suggest it as being any more highly evolved than say a panda, or giraffe, that only eat vegetation. It's not like everything started off as a vegetarian and then evolved into a meat eater. What would you class omnivores as then, half evolved, half devolved?

 

[Flores]

A) I must confess I don't get out as much as I would like, and as such haven't seen too many lions go mad while drinking human blood. Where can I go to see such a thing?

Move to Africa or watch the Man eater movie.

B) What has any of this got to do with pigs?

Come on snake, can't you drive and chew at the same time? Correlate baby, don't be such a block.

Pigs, rats, and other species are very similar to man in genetic makeup. You are good in searching the web, why don't you search this point in specific and see what you find. I ask you to have some patience. Do you ever think why pigs, rats, and monkeys are highly used in labs to study the effects on medecine on people? Because they behave similarly and are affected by similar things. I don't see a lab using chickens and bunnies to do their research, because they are more distant in genetic makeup than humans.

C) To your very first statement: "so you must believe that diet evolved and digestive systems have evolved as well."

Not entirely, no. A Tyrannosaurus rex was a pure meat eater, but there's nothing to suggest it as being any more highly evolved than say a panda, or giraffe, that only eat vegetation. It's not like everything started off as a vegetarian and then evolved into a meat eater. What would you class omnivores as then, half evolved, half devolved?

Come on snake....obviously an omnivore is the most evolved species. It has ability to digest a much larger array of foods. As you know, hearing is less evolved than seeing, you can see that in many primitive animals that are blind, yet can hear. But that doesn't mean that hearing is primitive, seeing and hearing at the same time is most evolved. Just seeing is the equivalent of being a carnivore.....an error....something on it's way to extinction just like our Tyrannoraurus rex have beautifully left us in peace with it's absence.

 

[SnakeLord]

Move to Africa or watch the Man eater movie.

I don't really consider the 'man eater' movie as proof of lions getting addicted to human blood and being unable to eat anything else. Regardless to that, I don't see any significance that lions are thus any more evolved than animals that chew the cud. Again I go back to my earlier statement: Lions don't need to chew the cud, they don't eat grass.

Pigs, rats, and other species are very similar to man in genetic makeup. You are good in searching the web, why don't you search this point in specific and see what you find. I ask you to have some patience. Do you ever think why pigs, rats, and monkeys are highly used in labs to study the effects on medecine on people? Because they behave similarly and are affected by similar things. I don't see a lab using chickens and bunnies to do their research, because they are more distant in genetic makeup than humans.

Aside from research labs using dogs, sheep, goats, pigs, rats, monkeys, guinea pigs, and rabbits, I don't see how this helps your statement that pigs cause cancer, stress and are impossible to kill. Sure, we share a greater percentage of identical dna, as opposed to say the fruit fly with only 25% being the same, but I can see no discernible harm in eating a pig, any more than the above mentioned fruit fly, rabbits, goats or sheep.

Upon searching I find the main, and seemingly only, reason that pigs are used in research labs are for cloning issues. You see, pig organs are roughly the same size as human organs, so they're cloning pigs in the hope that one day they can use them for transplants. It's unlikely they'd bother cloning a chicken to use in a future heart transplant wouldn't you say?

Come on snake....obviously an omnivore is the most evolved species.

Not really.. You can't state a cow is any less evolved because it eats grass vs a lion that eats meat. The way you look at things you could even say the cow is more evolved than humans because humans cannot digest grass at all. In the respect that omnivores can obviously survive longer during a crisis of shortage of meat, or shortage of vegetation than a herbivore or carnivore- and in that respect better evolved - you could also claim they're less evolved because they need a combination of both meats and vegetation to get the right nutrients whereas a herbivore or carnivore can get all it needs from just the one source.

If you feed a human nothing but meat for a long time he will get very ill - unable to provide many of the nutrients his body requires. Vegetarians can suffer just as much, (low blood sugar etc etc).

It has ability to digest a much larger array of foods.

Or.. It needs to digest a larger array of foods in order to get the required nutrients. Herbivores and carnivores do not.

 

[Ellimist]

It is amazing to me that even though science has all of these checks and balances, and peer reviews and double-checks, and repeated verifications to make sure ideas are consistent with observations, that these little dumbass, uneducated children and adults alike think they know better than hundreds of thousands of scientists around the world. If evolutionary theory is wrong, they change it to fit the evidence. Not the other way around. To have consistency, you must change the idea, not the observation. Do you think the theory of evolution is the same now as it was when Darwin formulated it? No! There have been recantations and additions made for the past hundred years... If there really is a problem with it, like so many theists, and others, say, why haven't they published their ideas and changed evolution, or even got rid of it entirely. Stop putting your ideas on fucking websites. If you really think you are right, publish it. That is the beauty of peer review. If you are right, they will verify it and you will change science... otherwise... you are blowing smoke.

*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

I am going to keep posting this until someone can outright prove me wrong by changing science, if they are so right in their belief that evolution is wrong. Come on, stop fooling around in some forums and spouting your beliefs on the internet, publish some fucking research. You think thousands of scientists who have evidence are wrong in their analyses? Go tell them... you show them that your analysis is better. Do it. go now.

 

[spidergoat]

This discussion is turning into one about diet, which is interesting in that it relates to evolution in a very direct way. Most animals have a specific, restricted diet. This is beneficial to the animals, because it limits the amount of mutagens, or chemicals responsible for genetic mutations, that their body has to deal with. When humans started leaving the forests for the grasslands of africa, our diet became much more varied, and included many unfamiliar foods high in mutagens. Perhaps this diet contributed to the acceleration of evolution in humans.

That it is considered an insult to be called a monkey is more a testament to its similarity with humans than its differences. After, all, would you consider it an insult to be called a zebra?

 

[SnakeLord]

And a 'left over' of our pre- evolutionary changes are wisdom teeth. A 'left over' of our former hairy bodies can be seen in goose pimples, and a 'left over' tail bone from the time our ancestors were swinging through trees

Or, In Flores case, rolling in mud while snorting with our snouts.

 

[guthrie]

Everything consumes things that are simpler than it in genetic makeup.

Do BActeria and Viruses count?

Ever seen how lions go mad and get addicted on sucking blood when they taste man? Once they eat man, they're addicted to our blood, and could eat nothing else, and become what's known as man eaters....The circle of life could be broken when we don't respect the food chain.

The last sentence is fine, but before that....
The maneaters turned maneater cos they were either injutred so couldnt run aafter fleet of foot antelope and gazelle, or else found that humans were much easier prey. Couldnt run so fast, pathetic vision and sense of smell, espcially at night. You could say the lions were higher up the food chain and better evolved.

 

[otheadp]

could you provide a reference for this?
----------------

yes:

http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/origin_of_man.html ( from the same HARUN YAHYA group ) www.harunyahya.com

http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/ ( again, it is Harun Yahya )

this writer makes a statement and points to himself as the "reference"?
that has zero credibility

someone else has to agree that the different primate families were overlapping in time periods for it to be at least a little bit credible

 

[Proud_Muslim]

How could you make such claims? Have you ever seen an invisible angel?

My dear sister:

Thank you for your notice, I hope you are fine and well insha allah.

Dear sister:

Allah created the angels from light. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The angels were created from light, the jinn were created from smokeless fire, and Adam was created from that which has been described to you.” (narrated by Muslim, 2996)

Also in the Noble Quran, we read:

''We created man and We know what his own self whispers to him. We are nearer to him than his jugular vein. And the two recording angels are recording, sitting on the right and on the left. He does not utter a single word, without a watcher by him, pen in hand! ''(Surah Qaf, 16-18)

From the above we see that now while you are reading my post, two angels are sitting on your right and left side recording everything you do, say or write...you dont see them, they are invisible.

They are created in such a way that they do not eat or drink. Their food is tasbeeh (glorification of Allah) and tahleel (saying Laa ilaaha ill-Allah), as Allah tells us concerning them (interpretation of the meaning):

“They (i.e. the angels) glorify His Praises night and day, (and) they never slacken (to do so)." [al-Anbiyaa’ 21:20]

God himself in the Quran tells us all that we know nothing of the truth of creation? So how can you refute evolution? What if god actually created and utilized evolution? Noone is asking you to worship evolution, only to investigate and study something that may yeild merit.

My dear sister, I said to bells, that we muslims believe in evolution AFTER creation, something which the evolutionists themselves dont accept, they dont believe in the creation in the first place.

We believe in the evolution of animals, YES...but we dont believe in the evolution of man...

If you do a research in the Quran database about the word creation, do you know how many times the word creation was mentioned in the Quran ?

61 times.

Do you know how many times the word Evolution was mentioned in the Quran ?

NONE.

Here is the Quran database site...put the word creation and count and put the word evolution and see by yourself:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchquran.html

I really advise you to read the following Quranic verse. It's one of the verse that I know by heart and recite often to myself. It's a grounding verse that humbles me and refocuses me whenever other muslims try to tell me that THEY KNOW IT ALL.

[2.255] Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot comprehend anything out of His knowledge except what He pleases, His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both tires Him not, and He is the Most High, the Great.

Masha Allah, it is AYAT AL KURSI...it is so beautiful, it drives the jinn and the evil spirits away from you and from your home..

My dear sister, I dont know all, I am poor humble slave of Allah almighty, I happened to read a lot about Islam from Muslim sources and my wife help me as well, we always sit and talk about verses and topics and we try to find references for them in the Quran and the Sunnah...we are engaged in dawa work on the internet.

May Allah bless you and your family insha allah...thank you for posting this very beautiful verse here.