ICE agents murder bystanders in Minneapolis

Hi VAT, no mate it's a legit post. If there is link to anything dodgy the site could be canned.
Thanks. But wouldn't it still benefit the threads if some of these recent battles - which tend to quickly go off topic and into the weeds of interpersonal issues - had their own place? That seems to work pretty well at the Dot Net sister website.
 
What's happened in Mnpls (the urban hub nearest me) is so awful, it's easy to just wander off topic. I watched three different videos and there is just no way to make any sense out of what happened being some sort of ICE self-defense. A man is murdered for coming to the aid of a fallen citizen (he's an ICU nurse, that would be a natural reaction for him) while being legally in possession of a holstered firearm. He's the quintessential "Good man with a gun" the 2nd Amendment Right are always lauding!

If you're American and have ever attended a protest of any kind, it's that point where you are thinking "that could have been me, that could have been anyone I know who would attend such a protest," and maybe if you're a white person you are just an inch or two closer to understanding what people of color have been trying to tell us about their lives in the USofA. Bad cops, bad fed agents, bring the brutal anarchy and then the Right spins a narrative of Black chaos and terrorizing or Leftist chaos and terrorizing, and pretty soon it's a wedge for the Cryptofascist Far Right to open the Overton Window to martial law and cancelling elections.
 
What's happened in Mnpls (the urban hub nearest me) is so awful, it's easy to just wander off topic. I watched three different videos and there is just no way to make any sense out of what happened being some sort of ICE self-defense. A man is murdered for coming to the aid of a fallen citizen (he's an ICU nurse, that would be a natural reaction for him) while being legally in possession of a holstered firearm. He's the quintessential "Good man with a gun" the 2nd Amendment Right are always lauding!

If you're American and have ever attended a protest of any kind, it's that point where you are thinking "that could have been me, that could have been anyone I know who would attend such a protest," and maybe if you're a white person you are just an inch or two closer to understanding what people of color have been trying to tell us about their lives in the USofA. Bad cops, bad fed agents, bring the brutal anarchy and then the Right spins a narrative of Black chaos and terrorizing or Leftist chaos and terrorizing, and pretty soon it's a wedge for the Cryptofascist Far Right to open the Overton Window to martial law and cancelling elections.
In the video in the Guardian, do we see the ICE man fire a gun or is it a pepper spray? Doesn’t look quite like a gun to me. He appears to squirt whatever it is several times, only successfully aiming at the man’s head on the 3rd attempt. Have they posted the wrong bit of footage?

Video here: https://www.theguardian.com/uk
 
In the video in the Guardian, do we see the ICE man fire a gun or is it a pepper spray? Doesn’t look quite like a gun to me. He appears to squirt whatever it is several times, only successfully aiming at the man’s head on the 3rd attempt. Have they posted the wrong bit of footage?

Video here: https://www.theguardian.com/uk
Hadn't seen that one. That's before Pretti is tackled to the ground, right? AP released a vetted set of 3 or 4, which didn't have as much of that interaction. And we still don't know how Pretti was carrying - beneath a jacket, in a shoulder holster, or what? Given the conduct of ICE (your clip shows one officer seeming to be completely out of control and raging), there's no way to trust the gun is not a plant or that any real evidence hasn't been tampered with thoroughly by now.
 
Hi VAT, no mate it's a legit post. If there is link to anything dodgy the site could be canned.
No worries about being canned... if James R had any dout that a posted link led to an illegal internet page... said link would be instantly deleted :rolleyes:
 
Please do not troll.
Thanks. But wouldn't it still benefit the threads if some of these recent battles - which tend to quickly go off topic and into the weeds of interpersonal issues - had their own place? That seems to work pretty well at the Dot Net sister website.
Somptin like that has been suggested for Sciforums a few times over the years... but it never got past the people in charge... in fear that it would be so popular that it would distract from the regular forums.!!!
 
wish they would stop blurring images. People need to see the entire horror.

I suspect this relates to journalistic procedures where the video, when it's being blurred, they don't know if the victim's name has been released or the family informed. And there may legal issues around showing graphic injuries - some families may object for various cultural or religious reasons. Then, by contrast, there's the famous case of Emmett Till in the mid-50s who was beaten to death and the mother demanded an open casket and that pictures be taken, so the world would understand what those animals had done. That mom had some guts. And those pictures helped the civil rights movement, galvanizing the public to louder calls for reform and justice.
 
feigned (?) reading comprehension issues

Well, you know how it goes: Someone who doesn't know the meaning of a word, nor the law that applies to it, will always have a legit opinion about what they find dodgy as long as they have the right politics.

Anecdotally, once upon a time I knew some people who worried about suppression of free speech, so they set aside basic expectations of integrity and even literacy on the grounds that if certain arguments are obliged to facts and reliability, then political opinions are being suppressed. I knew some of them for decades, and it was never clear which arguments and behaviors were exempt from the expectations others were expected to meet.

The moral of the story is that some arguments, opinions, and outlooks are unsustainable in an environment requiring even the most basic of integrity. But, of course, morals of stories have no meaning in amoral-relativist solipsism. Neither do words.

It's like the practical difference between, say, "free speech" and the First Amendment. Or, as such, the difference between what someone wants the law to say and what it actually says.

I will give you this advice, though: Certain lines you and I know how to parse are not so immediately apparent to those who do not understand the meaning and history of those thresholds.

Doxxing public employees, if done correctly, isn't really doxxing. Moreover, doxxing isn't implicitly illegal. Furthermore, in a circumstance when both civil disobedience and open perjury are in play, certain disclaimers become useful. Confusion about those disclaimers, however, is virtually inevitable in situations countenancing an argument or outlook that cannot sustain itself according to even the most basic of integrity.

And what might be hard for people to see, either from abroad or according to their time, is how the feelgood tough talk of yesteryear fell into disrepute because of the people who liked it. It's a classic American example of selective incomprehension, and as you're aware, that sort of behavior is both predictable and unbelievable.

†​

Anecdote on incomprehension: So, one day, at the pub, someone starts doing this bit advocating mass murder, but the thing is that everybody at the table kind of gets the joke. Still, at a time when mass violence is coming unhinged, there is a reasonable question whether the people he's making the joke about would actually get the joke. And as it happens, the one is determined to make his point, doubles down, triples down, playing a hard line. Maybe someone else might take him wrongly, but we at the table get the joke.

By contrast, one day someone else at the table did a line about stochastic violence, and ordinarily we all get the joke. But there was this dude, from overseas as it happens, who didn't get the joke. And, sure, as much as he opined on American culture, politics, and history, he apparently missed the whole American societal episode about stochastic violence. What was strange, though, was the Americans at the table who suddenly forgot. Even the guy pushing mass murder tried to wag moral like he didn't have a clue.

For them, it wasn't a matter of the ignorance or incomprehension being believable or not, but, rather, whether it was convenient.

†​

Here is a conundrum: The public record is not doxxing. Try to imagine an individual arrested, but by nobody. We have reason to actually expect this outcome; law enforcers are observably not attending regular procedure and process. Compared to the number of crimes committed by law enforcement and the prospect of what to do about the prosecution of their victims, the easiest way to break the culpability chain will be to detach the law enforcer from the act. The record of who arrested who for what is already known to be unreliable; what are the chances that the Masked Icemen meeting arrest quotas are writing and filing proper incident reports? When it is time to seek justice for those abused in our pogrom, we might well find it impossible to figure who actually arrested them in the first place.

Given that most Americans don't know "immigration court" isn't part of the judiciary, and pogrom supporters have every reason to pretend such ignorance, the note for internationals is hard to fashion.

As it is, Americans should be able to find out, right now, in the moment, who arrested that person for what. That's not happening in catch-and-release harassment, because a proper incident report for that behavior would describe a crime by law enforcement officers. Additionally, the "papers, please" demand leading to the immigration-related detention of American citizens is itself illegal; proper incident reports would describe crime by law enforcers.

History will likely show us thousands of people ostensibly arrested and detained, even to the point that government custody is not in dispute, by nobody.

†​

Comparatively, it really is hard to believe pretenses of ignorance failing to recognize that DHS snatchers are either public employees or felons for pretending. Nobody pretending basic comprehension of a free society should, at this point, be utterly ignorant about transparency. Just for instance.

Compared to believability, though, it would take a special kind of stupid to think a resource for helping people comply with the law is some sort of illegal internet page. I guess it depends on how one defines illegal. Presently, for instance, the snatchers and their bosses consider naming public employees some kind of illegal. (It's a novel thesis, as such, of the sort we were never supposed to imagine our law enforcers attempting, but individual values vary, and in increasingly global discourse, expectations of even such basic comprehension are almost dangerously unreliable compared to the value of ignorance.)

The idea of feigning ignorance or incomprehension has always seemed something of a gamble, but individual values vary, and if Sartre suggested they fear "to prejudice by their embarrassment their hope of winning over some third person to their side", then, sure, an appeal to ignorance as omni-syndrome commonality might look like a calculable gamble, and is certainly a choice.
 
And we still don't know how Pretti was carrying - beneath a jacket, in a shoulder holster, or what? Given the conduct of ICE (your clip shows one officer seeming to be completely out of control and raging), there's no way to trust the gun is not a plant or that any real evidence hasn't been tampered with thoroughly by now.
Issuing correction to above:

The Post has released a video which, using highlighted circles on the images, does show Pretti with a sidearm and its removal by an ICE officer during that horrible scrum. But again, this was a legal carry, and it's now clear the gun was holstered during all that scuffling. Which is more than one can say for Kyle Rittenhouse in the demonstrations in Kenosha, WI six years ago. Rittenhouse, of course, was lauded as a hero by his Right Wing supporters, after murdering two men who tried to grab his gun away from him, and shooting a third. And Rittenhouse was out there defending that which the Right seems to value most: property.
 
Vapor and Faith: Running on Empty

Rep. Walter Hudson is a member of the Minnesota House of Representatives, a Republican from District 30A. The exchange depicted in Friedman's post is real; Rep. Hudson really did say↱, "We don't require a video. We have an official statement from DHS which has not been disproven." Or, as the context note on his earlier post↱ informs, "There is zero evidence or witness statements that the victim 'brandished' a firearm in any way."

It's one thing to demand someone prove a negative. But to ignore the affirmative evidence, that we can watch the video that disagrees with DHS statements, well, that's the thing, isn't it: He's not just asking us to ignore the evidence; Rep. Hudson, the Republican from northwest Twin Cites metro & environs, asserts explicitly that we do not require the evidence that disproves the DHS statement he claims "has not been disproven".

It's a particularly dramatic example of a fairly common behavior. This is the sort of political voice that is disrupted by evidence, good faith, and rational discourse. Rep. Walter Hudson apparently cannot make his point according to the evidence, and would have us discard the evidence accordingly.

 
Could the ParmaSarkuJames skirmishes have their own separate thread possibly?
In principle, yes. In practice, ParmaSarkus would throw a collective fit about the moderator moving their precious posts out of context. It would be an abuse of the moderator's power, you see, and demonstrate the moderator's personal bias and arbitrary persecution of well-intentioned people who only want to identify and selectively correct the "errors" of other people on the interwebs.
 
Moderator note: cluelusshusbund has been warned for trolling.

Due to accumulated warning points, clueluss will be absent from sciforums for a few days.
 
Compared to believability, though, it would take a special kind of stupid to think a resource for helping people comply with the law is some sort of illegal internet page.
As I understand it, in the United States the illegality of internet pages is not decided by the feels of "believability". Rather, it is decided by the laws of the United States.

It sounds like you can't help me to determine what the law says in regards to the posting of a list of ICE agents on the interwebs. I'm guessing that parmalee can't, either.

You guys would probably be better off just admitting that you don't know, so you're going to go with the feels instead.
 
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