Humbled by Hubble

Stop putting words in my mouth! and start taking notice of current conventional theories that have been tested.
I was one of a couple who asked that this thread be moved. Perhaps I was wrong.
Your pretentious smart arse quip has been answered.
sorry my words triggered that kind of a response.
I am serious. There is only uncreated energy. There is no created energy, -only con-versions of the eternal kind. imho
If "there is no uncreated (aka eternal) energy". what kind of energy are we living with?
It would be easy for the powers to be to send this discussion back to the bilge.
Current conventional theories have a way to be carried away by the current. , by the better questions that are always coming up. .
 
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Current conventional theories have a way to be carried away by the current. , by the better questions that are always coming up. .
Current conventional scientific theories always remain as scientific theories, (or our best estimations at any given time) because as new observations are made and new data comes to hand, a scientific theory may need to be added to, modified, changed somewhat, re-enforced further, or even scrapped if needed.
Scientific theories are tested by scientists everyday.
sorry my words triggered that kind of a response.
Conventional scientific language is generally recognised. You seem to be distorting that. eg: Why the hell talk about timespace when the convention is spacetime?
In saying that, some scientific language is confusing, or even wrong. The Big Bang for example, promotes the idea of some sort of explosion. It wasn't. It was simply an evolution of space and time, (spacetime) from a hotter denser state. The big bang was a term of derision applied by Fred Hoyle who was pushing a "Steady State" model..
I am serious. There is only uncreated energy. There is no created energy, -only con-versions of the eternal kind. imho
If "there is no uncreated (aka eternal) energy".
I have never heard of "uncreated energy" But out of curiosity I decided to check. I found this....."Uncreated energy refers to the eternal, uncreated acts, operations, or graces of God (such as love, mercy, and divine light) through which God interacts with the world, while remaining distinct from His unknowable essence. Central to Eastern Orthodox theology, these energies allow humans to experience and unite with God without comprehending his divine nature"
(so a religious concept) (Not sure what I was doing in my religious class back in the day. That may have been the day I was caught behind the Altar with another, drinking the altar wine!!)
what kind of energy are we living with?.
Britannica defines energy as follows....
Energy is fundamentally defined as the capacity to do work or produce change, existing in various forms such as kinetic (motion) and potential (stored) energy. It cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed from one form to another, with joules (j) serving as the standard unit of measurement.

Common Usage Examples of Energy:

  • Kinetic Energy: A car moving on a road, a person running, or a falling object.
  • Potential Energy: A stretched bowstring, a coiled spring, or a boulder sitting at the top of a hill.
  • Electrical Energy: Powering household appliances, lighting homes, and charging devices.
  • Chemical Energy: Energy stored in food, batteries, or gasoline.
  • Thermal Energy: Heat generated from fire or a radiator.
  • Radiant Energy: Light from the sun.
  • Law of Conservation of Energy: The total energy in a closed system remains constant.
Is the Universe a closed system? That part is debatable.
 
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Current conventional scientific theories always remain as scientific theories, (or our best estimations at any given time) because as new observations are made and new data comes to hand, a scientific theory may need to be added to, modified, changed somewhat, re-enforced further, or even scrapped if needed.
Scientific theories are tested by scientists everyday.

Conventional scientific language is generally recognised. You seem to be distorting that. eg: Why the hell talk about timespace when the convention is spacetime?
In saying that, some scientific language is confusing, or even wrong. The Big Bang for example, promotes the idea of some sort of explosion. It wasn't. It was simply an evolution of space and time, (spacetime) from a hotter denser state. The big bang was a term of derision applied by Fred Hoyle who was pushing a "Steady State" model..

I have never heard of "uncreated energy" But out of curiosity I decided to check. I found this....."Uncreated energy refers to the eternal, uncreated acts, operations, or graces of God (such as love, mercy, and divine light) through which God interacts with the world, while remaining distinct from His unknowable essence. Central to Eastern Orthodox theology, these energies allow humans to experience and unite with God without comprehending his divine nature"
(so a religious concept) (Not sure what I was doing in my religious class back in the day. That may have been the day I was caught behind the Altar with another, drinking the altar wine!!)

Britannica defines energy as follows....
Energy is fundamentally defined as the capacity to do work or produce change, existing in various forms such as kinetic (motion) and potential (stored) energy. It cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed from one form to another, with joules (j) serving as the standard unit of measurement.

Common Usage Examples of Energy:

  • Kinetic Energy: A car moving on a road, a person running, or a falling object.
  • Potential Energy: A stretched bowstring, a coiled spring, or a boulder sitting at the top of a hill.
  • Electrical Energy: Powering household appliances, lighting homes, and charging devices.
  • Chemical Energy: Energy stored in food, batteries, or gasoline.
  • Thermal Energy: Heat generated from fire or a radiator.
  • Radiant Energy: Light from the sun.
  • Law of Conservation of Energy: The total energy in a closed system remains constant.
Is the Universe a closed system? That part is debatable.
Thank you for that meaningful post.
using Britannica, There must have existed the capacity to do work before the Big Beginning ( my preference over Hoyle) , so : Let us say that our universe was "made" not created, because the Energy existed already. In the ALMA thread here emerged the new terms: "Timespace", and "Energytime" . meant to be
Novel names, so not in the dictionary. How would this occur to me? -- naturally, by historic background !, When I was born in 1930, Einstein still lived in my hometown. The local language he worked in, lends itself to creating new , meaningful words by just running them together.
Energytime , Timespace describe new concepts, or highlight the meaning of old ones. like Kraus's "Nothing" or the Dirac "Sea" .
Dealing with the queries about the 'pre- or outside' of our local universe brings us inevitably into "spiritual" considerations, and many accomplished scientists,- Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Einstein were --- often in hidden form --- strongly involved in aspects of that.

As to the theme of this thread, Hubble's Redshifts? --- if they measures only the total distance of expansion of space - (The longer the redder) -- how does that help us with the establishing of values for the initial velocities?
 
When I was born in 1930, Einstein still lived in my hometown.
You're 96 years old? That comes as a surprise to me. And you're Swiss?

And this physics stuff is what is occupying a lot of your time these days? I guess it's good to have a hobby.
 
Thank you for that meaningful post.
I stand to be corrected by others if needed.
: Let us say hat our universe was "made" not created, because the Energy existed already. In the ALMA thread here emerged the new terms: "Timespace", and "Energytime" . meant to be
Energy emerged with the evolution of spacetime, and inflation. At this time, all we can do is speculate.
 
I stand to be corrected by others if needed.

Energy emerged with the evolution of spacetime, and inflation. At this time, all we can do is speculate.
so, Where did energy emerge from? where was it hiding? imho, my answer stands:

It appeared in our universe from ' it's eternal existence in energytime, in timespace.-- from that pre-universe domain -- it was transferred into spacetime, and used to make matter.
 
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Not a thing. This has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters.


Relative to what? There is no such thing as "absolute" velocity or "at rest," we can only describe motion when we compare reference frames.
Of course it is not a "thing" so: here are the steps, again, that lead to the concept of time and energy in a domain before our universe:
We have proved energy to be undestroyable and un-createable. aka eternal. ( but our universe is not)
nothing exists without having time to exist in, so time must also be eternal, (reaching from the infinite past into the infinite future}.
We spend our time in 3D space, There were no 3 dimensions before or spacetime, but only energy and time, hence Energytime
Timespace is the - for us undefinable abode of eternal energy.
Energytime and timespace are not "things" we might easily think of here in our setting. -- now:

What about the redshift observed in the young spacetime?

At 95+ I am running out of time ahead of me. therefore my preoccupation and respect for it.
 
so, Where did energy emerge from? where was it hiding? imho, my answer stands:
Obviously it emerged when the BB emerged. The bone of contention is though that while we have plenty of evidence for the BB having occured, we know nothing of that first 10-43 seconds from the initial event. This is the quantum/Planck level, and our laws of physics and General Relativity, fail us at this realm.
Many cosmologists though speculate that the total positive energy is balanced by the negative energy of gravity, meaning the overall energy content of the universe might be zero, removing the need for a specific "creation" event.
(google) gravitational potential energy is considered negative because it is a "bound" or "binding" energy. In physics, gravitational potential energy is defined as zero when two objects are infinitely far apart. Because gravity is always attractive, energy must be added to pull objects apart, making the potential energy negative as they move closer.
(wiki)Negative energy in cosmology is a theoretical concept representing gravitational potential energy that offsets positive matter energy, contributing to a "zero-energy universe". Often associated with negative pressure or vacuum energy (like dark energy), it drives accelerating expansion and is sometimes referred to as negative mass, gravitational potential energy, or the dark fluid component.
Zero-Energy Universe Hypothesis: Some physicists propose that the total positive energy (matter) in the universe is perfectly balanced by the negative energy (gravity), suggesting a "universe from nothing"... "
"The cosmological constant was first proposed by Einstein as a mechanism to obtain a solution to the gravitational field equation that would lead to a static universe, effectively using dark energy to balance gravity.[14] Einstein gave the cosmological constant the symbol Λ (capital lambda). Einstein stated that the cosmological constant required that 'empty space takes the role of gravitating negative masses that are distributed all over the interstellar space'.[15][16]

The mechanism was an example of fine-tuning, and it was later realized that Einstein's static universe would not be stable: local inhomogeneities would ultimately lead to either the runaway expansion or contraction of the universe. The equilibrium is unstable: if the universe expands slightly, then the expansion releases vacuum energy, which causes yet more expansion. Likewise, a universe that contracts slightly will continue contracting. According to Einstein, "empty space" can possess its own energy. Because this energy is a property of space itself, it would not be diluted as space expands. As more space comes into existence, more of this energy-of-space would appear, thereby causing accelerated expansion.[17] These sorts of disturbances are inevitable, due to the uneven distribution of matter throughout the universe. Further, observations made by Edwin Hubble in 1929 showed that the universe appears to be expanding and is not static. Einstein reportedly referred to his failure to predict the idea of a dynamic universe, in contrast to a static universe, as his greatest blunder" .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy
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While it seems science/cosmology is at an impasse with regards to the actual instant of the BB and the short period after, (10-43 seconds) many of our technological marvels like the HST, the JWST, the LHC, the RHIC, and LIGO, are giving us glimpses and ideas about the quantum realm.
The thing is that scientists understand the limitations at this time. The sad part is that those motivated by a supreme being as the overall creator, are quick to claim victory over science by installing that supreme being....commonly known as "the God of the gaps"


"
 
beil:

The big bang was the beginning of space as we know it. Space came into existence at the big bang and it has been expanding ever since. That's the theory.

The usual term is "spacetime", if you want to talk about time and space as a whole. But okay.

Here's where things get tricky. How do you want to define "universe"?

One way is just to define the universe as our current iteration of spacetime - the one we can observe and measure.

A different way to define the universe is to say it is everything that has ever existed or ever will exist. If we want to talk about the universe in that sense, then if you think it's not infinite you need to give me some reasons for why you think that. As for me, I'm agnostic on that question because, as far as I'm aware, we have no way to access anything beyond our current iteration of time and space.

In fact, even if you only want to talk about "the universe" in terms of the more limited definition, you'll still need to give me some reasons if you want to assert that universe is finite. I'm equally agnostic on that question, because I'm not aware of any data that definitively answers the question one way or the other.

It might, but I'm not aware of any evidence that it does. Are you?

Also, I can't think of a good physical reason why we ought to think it does. Can you?

Even using the more limited of the two definitions of "universe" given above above, you're still talking about all the stuff we can ever see and measure. All the space. That stuff doesn't expand into something larger. By definition, it is everything there is. There can't be any extra space "outside" the universe we have defined.

The firework analogy doesn't work, because a firework explodes and the piece go off into the empty sky around the firework. But when our universe expands, it doesn't have pieces that got off into some external reality.

Light from things farther away was emitted from those things earlier, certainly.

Yes. Hubble showed that distant galaxies are moving away from us faster than closer galaxies.

Assuming the universe as a whole is reasonably homogeneous on large scales, this also means that anybody in another galaxy would observe exactly the same thing we do: galaxies that are more distant from him would be moving away faster than ones closer to him.

No. If anything, younger was slower, for reasons I explained in a previous post.
I find that idea comforting, galaxies and their components , inhabitants, slowly starting to move from their point of origin at the B ig B eginning. so, If the universe is finite, will all these individual separation movements by nature not also all point outward. ? Nobody is expanding back into the beginning after all!
The question then is: Was it a point of origin or a volume?
 
I find that idea comforting, galaxies and their components , inhabitants, slowly starting to move from their point of origin at the B ig B eginning. so, If the universe is finite, will all these individual separation movements by nature not also all point outward. ? Nobody is expanding back into the beginning after all!
The question then is: Was it a point of origin or a volume?
There was no point of origin. All of the observable universe/spacetime came into existence at the BB. All of the universe/spacetime evolved at the BB. That's all we know with any certainty at this time. Everything we know of and can observe evolved from that fluctuation in the quantum foam, we now call the BB. The rest is speculation...some good, some not so good, others unscientific at best.
If this sort of speculation grabs you, then get a hold of Professor Lawrence Krauss' book, "A Universe from Nothing" and another great read, is Stephen Weinberg,s "The First Three Minutes"
 
beil:
so, Where did energy emerge from? where was it hiding? imho, my answer stands:

It appeared in our universe from ' it's eternal existence in energytime, in timespace.-- from that pre-universe domain -- it was transferred into spacetime, and used to make matter.
Energy is just a number. It isn't "stuff" that "appeared". It's an accounting tool.
We have proved energy to be undestroyable and un-createable. aka eternal.
No. We have shown that energy is conserved in isolated systems.
nothing exists without having time to exist in...
How do you know that?
... so time must also be eternal...
That doesn't follow at all.
We spend our time in 3D space,
Space has three dimensions, yes. Three large ones, anyway.
There were no 3 dimensions before or spacetime, but only energy and time...
Before what? The big bang? How do you know?
Timespace is the - for us undefinable abode of eternal energy.
It sounds like you have a quasi-religious belief, not a science, there.
Energytime and timespace are not "things" we might easily think of here in our setting. -- now:
I agree that Energytime and Timespace are not things.
What about the redshift observed in the young spacetime?
What's "young spacetime"? I don't understand your question. How do you measure the age of a spacetime?
At 95+ I am running out of time ahead of me.
I notice your profile says you were born in 1934, which makes you 91 years old. Which statement of yours is the lie? The one here, or the one in your profile? Or can't you remember how old you are? Just wondering.

I am interested to know what your experience of World War II was like. Would you like to share a bit more about yourself? I don't get to talk to many 95 year olds. You must have a lot of experience worth sharing that would have to be more interesting that your pseudo-physics.
I find that idea comforting, galaxies and their components , inhabitants, slowly starting to move from their point of origin at the B ig B eginning.
That must be nice for you.
If the universe is finite, will all these individual separation movements by nature not also all point outward. ?
Outward relative to what?
Nobody is expanding back into the beginning after all!
By "expanding back into the beginning" do you just mean "contracting"? Why the complicated language?
The question then is: Was it a point of origin or a volume?
The big bang, you mean? Nobody knows. We can't see back that far.
 
There was no point of origin. All of the observable universe/spacetime came into existence at the BB. All of the universe/spacetime evolved at the BB. That's all we know with any certainty at this time. Everything we know of and can observe evolved from that fluctuation in the quantum foam, we now call the BB. The rest is speculation...some good, some not so good, others unscientific at best.
If this sort of speculation grabs you, then get a hold of Professor Lawrence Krauss' book, "A Universe from Nothing" and another great read, is Stephen Weinberg,s "The First Three Minutes"
I conser the B B THE point of origin.
Thank you for the read recommendations . I Read Kraus many years ago, and am still on the quest, because if I had to sum up my take away from "--out of nothing" . There is no such thing as nothing"
 
beil:

Energy is just a number. It isn't "stuff" that "appeared". It's an accounting tool.

No. We have shown that energy is conserved in isolated systems.

How do you know that?

That doesn't follow at all.

Space has three dimensions, yes. Three large ones, anyway.

Before what? The big bang? How do you know?

It sounds like you have a quasi-religious belief, not a science, there.

I agree that Energytime and Timespace are not things.

What's "young spacetime"? I don't understand your question. How do you measure the age of a spacetime?

I notice your profile says you were born in 1934, which makes you 91 years old. Which statement of yours is the lie? The one here, or the one in your profile? Or can't you remember how old you are? Just wondering.

I am interested to know what your experience of World War II was like. Would you like to share a bit more about yourself? I don't get to talk to many 95 year olds. You must have a lot of experience worth sharing that would have to be more interesting that your pseudo-physics.

That must be nice for you.

Outward relative to what?

By "expanding back into the beginning" do you just mean "contracting"? Why the complicated language?

The big bang, you mean? Nobody knows. We can't see back that far.
age 91 must be an error, not a lie. Born , alive in 1930 in berlin. survived some diecy situations, will be glad to share, give me a channel.
 
I conser the B B THE point of origin.
Yes, the origin of our universe/spacetime, (as we know them) and as I mentioned, we can only see back as far as t+10-43 seconds. The rest is speculation.
Thank you for the read recommendations . I Read Kraus many years ago, and am still on the quest, because if I had to sum up my take away from "--out of nothing" . There is no such thing as nothing"
And Krauss speculates that the quantum foam, (spacetime at the quantum level) is effectively NOTHING. His speculation makes the claim for the necessity of a supernatural creator, obsolete if correct.
Science in any case does not entertain the supernatural.
 
Yes, the origin of our universe/spacetime, (as we know them) and as I mentioned, we can only see back as far as t+10-43 seconds. The rest is speculation.

And Krauss speculates that the quantum foam, (spacetime at the quantum level) is effectively NOTHING. His speculation makes the claim for the necessity of a supernatural creator, obsolete if correct.
Science in any case does not entertain the supernatural.
Well, yes, that is why I swallowed hard back then. . How can "quantum foam" that seems to underlay everything -- really be nothing?
In mho, the description of the nature of "Energy" as un-destructible, uncreated, and projecting that fundamental idea back into earlier time ,-- is not intruding into the spiritual, religious domain.
Assigning specific agency to the use of eternal energy would be.
 
And Krauss speculates that the quantum foam, (spacetime at the quantum level) is effectively NOTHING.
I think that's a fudge, personally. Quantum foam isn't "nothing". A quantum field isn't "nothing", even if its value happens to be zero everywhere at some particular time.

I haven't read Krauss's book, but I did attend a talk by him about it, years ago.

If he wants to say that the universe came from a bunch of quantum fields, that still leaves open the question of where the quantum fields came from.

(I must admit, I lost a lot of respect for Krauss after the details of various incidents in his personal life came to light. Turns out he also spent time hobnobbing with Jeffrey Epstein, and he's in the Epstein files - including where he asked Epstein for advice on how to handle negative publicity surrounding allegations of sexual harassment.

Not that any of this impacts whether he knows his physics or not, but it does mean that I'm not going to be giving him any money by buying his books, going forward.)
 
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I think that's a fudge, personally. Quantum foam isn't "nothing". A quantum field isn't "nothing", even if its value happens to be zero everywhere at some particular time.

I haven't read Krauss's book, but I did attend a talk by him about it, years ago.

If he wants to say that the universe came from a bunch of quantum fields, that still leaves open the question of where the quantum fields came from.

(I must admit, I lost a lot of respect for Krauss after the details of various incidents in his personal life came to light. Turns out he also spent time hobnobbing with Jeffrey Epstein, and he's in the Epstein files - including where he asked Epstein for advice on how to handle negative publicity surrounding allegations of sexual harassment.

Not that any of this impacts whether he knows his physics or not, but it does mean that I'm not going to be giving him any money by buying his books, going forward.)
Yes, it has always seemed to me that the hypothesis of the universe expanding from fluctuations in fields with a net value of zero is chiefly of interest in that it implicitly denies the concept of an original singularity, which is one of the other hypotheses. It is after all meaningless to speak of a "field" unless it has some spatial extent. Also it implies there was no start to time, i.e. no t=0 moment, as there is in the singularity hypothesis.

But neither of these conjectures is really science, as there is no way to make any observation to discriminate between these ideas.
 
Not that any of this impacts whether he knows his physics or not, but it does mean that I'm not going to be giving him any money by buying his books, going forward.)
Same. I was very disappointed by all of that after following his lectures, debates on line.
Not sure if I still have, "A universe from nothing."
 
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