Huge psilocybin dose has incredible effect on elderly dementia patient?

[C C]

Heh. The radical results are probably only unique to her and an occasional other patient. The commercially viable and statistically derived average or generic person is what the pharmaceutical industry and the vetting slash safety establishment are restricted to accommodating. Not freak outliers.[1] For instance, there's a venomous snake-bite treatment that worked twice "only" for me (the latter a justified conclusion based on it being one of the very approaches that medical experts warn victims not to engage in, due to it increasing the severity for most people rather than remedying it).
[1] Excluding rare conditions one might be born with, etc, that incredibly expensive drugs are developed especially for, with regard to that tiny minority.
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Huge psilocybin dose has incredible effect on elderly dementia patient
https://www.sciencealert.com/huge-psilocybin-dose-has-incredible-effect-on-elderly-dementia-patient

EXCERPT: The elderly woman with dementia was first treated with an incredibly high dose of 5 grams of psilocybin-containing mushrooms, which caused her to enter a prolonged, deep sleep-like state. Before the experimental treatment, the patient could only speak in monosyllables, rarely initiated communication with others, and was very dependent on assistance for basic activities of daily living.

Roughly 19 hours after the oral dose, the woman suddenly began to talk to herself. She kept doing so for several hours. Over the next few days, the elderly patient was reportedly able to control her bladder, dress and walk by herself, and engage in conversation, holding eye contact and smiling back. (MORE - details)
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[exchemist]

Heh. The radical results are probably only unique to her and an occasional other patient. The commercially viable and statistically derived average or generic person is what the pharmaceutical industry and the vetting slash safety establishment are restricted to accommodating. Not freak outliers.[1] For instance, there's a venomous snake-bite treatment that worked twice "only" for me (the latter a justified conclusion based on it being one of the very approaches that medical experts warn victims not to engage in, due to it increasing the severity for most people rather than remedying it).
[1] Excluding rare conditions one might be born with, etc, that incredibly expensive drugs are developed especially for, with regard to that tiny minority.
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Huge psilocybin dose has incredible effect on elderly dementia patient
https://www.sciencealert.com/huge-psilocybin-dose-has-incredible-effect-on-elderly-dementia-patient

EXCERPT: The elderly woman with dementia was first treated with an incredibly high dose of 5 grams of psilocybin-containing mushrooms, which caused her to enter a prolonged, deep sleep-like state. Before the experimental treatment, the patient could only speak in monosyllables, rarely initiated communication with others, and was very dependent on assistance for basic activities of daily living.

Roughly 19 hours after the oral dose, the woman suddenly began to talk to herself. She kept doing so for several hours. Over the next few days, the elderly patient was reportedly able to control her bladder, dress and walk by herself, and engage in conversation, holding eye contact and smiling back. (MORE - details)
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Yes obviously this is not held out as a treatment for wider use, but I suppose it may be indicative of an effect of this drug that is worth researching.

 

[Pinball1970]

Yes obviously this is not held out as a treatment for wider use, but I suppose it may be indicative of an effect of this drug that is worth researching.

I am sure CC's reference is legit but the title made me laugh. A large dose of a known psychedelic I would have an "Incredible effect," on 99.99% of the human population.

 

[Pinball1970]

Yes obviously this is not held out as a treatment for wider use, but I suppose it may be indicative of an effect of this drug that is worth researching.

A friend who is a cancer researcher who previously worked in treatment mentioned ketamine and MDMA too I think. Ketamine certainly used for severe RTA patients for pain management.

 

[exchemist]

It seems psilocybin is dephosphorylated in the body to give psilocin, which is very similar to serotonin, a neurotransmitter. In fact the only difference is the presence of 2 methyl substituents on the terminal nitrogen atom, where serotonin has a primary amine group NH2. So it’s not surprising it can wake up the brain a bit.

I was reminded of the H G Wells short story “The Purple Pileus”, in which a henpecked husband at the end of his tether tries to commit suicide by eating poisonous mushrooms but instead comes home in an elated state and uncharacteristically shouts at and beats his wife, who is then meek and mild to him forever afterwards.

 

[TheVat]

I am sure CC's reference is legit but the title made me laugh. A large dose of a known psychedelic I would have an "Incredible effect," on 99.99% of the human population.

Yes, the adjective "huge" did trigger some laughter here, too. A bit of a tradeoff: the elderly patient was then able to control her bladder, but I had more trouble with mine. The wheel of life.

The HG Wells story I'm unfamiliar with, though it sounds like one of his more whimsical perhaps (though a modern editor might request a rewrite on the wife beating and resultant submissiveness)

 

[exchemist]

Yes, the adjective "huge" did trigger some laughter here, too. A bit of a tradeoff: the elderly patient was then able to control her bladder, but I had more trouble with mine. The wheel of life.

The HG Wells story I'm unfamiliar with, though it sounds like one of his more whimsical perhaps (though a modern editor might request a rewrite on the wife beating and resultant submissiveness)

Yes HG Wells was not very PC, but then people weren’t, back at the turn of the c.20th. (The story was published in 1896.) in fact Wells, who was politically a socialist, also went in for eugenics and advocated compulsory sterilisation of “defectives”. So quite a number of his views would be looked at askance today. But I think the Purple Pileus is a sort of fable, really. The wife, as I recall, criticises her husband for being feeble and unmanly, and so when he goes apeshit under the influence of the drug she is impressed and thinks he’s a real man after all. Or something like that - all a bit primitive.

 

[Pinball1970]

(though a modern editor might request a rewrite on the wife beating and resultant submissiveness)

Keep the past in the past as it was in the past, if we sanitise it for our sensitive, 21st century angsty Gen Z then it's not the past anymore and nobody learns anything.

trigger some laughter here, too

There was something very "dude" about it. They got gran high and she started talking about surfing?

Also, "During this second session, the woman said, unprompted, "It is pleasant to come here.""

Researchers snigger, "Dude, she likes getting high dude."

 

[exchemist]

Keep the past in the past as it was in the past, if we sanitise it for our sensitive, 21st century angsty Gen Z then it's not the past anymore and nobody learns anything.

There was something very "dude" about it. They got gran high and she started talking about surfing?

Also, "During this second session, the woman said, unprompted, "It is pleasant to come here.""

Researchers snigger, "Dude, she likes getting high dude."

But this is rather sweet. Perhaps a person with dementia feels trapped and to get high on this drug allows their mind to break the shackles for a bit and feel free. Perhaps we should think about what it may feel like to be them.

 

[TheVat]

Keep the past in the past as it was in the past, if we sanitise it for our sensitive, 21st century angsty Gen Z then it's not the past anymore and nobody learns anything.

Well yes. I was noting the shift with a wry smile, not suggesting any rewrites from time traveling editors. (A possibility I'm sure Wells was more willing to entertain than your average Victorian gent)

 

[Pinball1970]

It seems psilocybin is dephosphorylated in the body to give psilocin, which is very similar to serotonin, a neurotransmitter. In fact the only difference is the presence of 2 methyl substituents on the terminal nitrogen atom, where serotonin has a primary amine group NH2. So it’s not surprising it can wake up the brain a bit.

Why such different effects with psilocybin and MDMA? I will have to look into that.

But this is rather sweet. Perhaps a person with dementia feels trapped and to get high on this drug allows their mind to break the shackles for a bit and feel free. Perhaps we should think about what it may feel like to be them.

Yes, just one nightmare ending to one's life.

 

[exchemist]

Why such different effects with psilocybin and MDMA? I will have to look into that.

Yes, just one nightmare ending to one's life.

Based on a quick Wiki check it seems methamphetamines work differently, by stimulating the release of several of the body's own neurotransmitters, of which seratonin is just one. So maybe if production of these is inhibited in dementia (? - I have no idea if this is so) MDMA would not be able to have so much of an effect.

But I was wondering if psilocybin might ameliorate - or at least provide periodic relief from - the experience of dementia.

(Certainly I fervently hope to escape it. My parents and grandparents did so there's a decent chance. That's partly why I keep up the choral singing - though I do also enjoy it for it for its own sake of course.)

 

[gmilam]

Why such different effects with psilocybin and MDMA? I will have to look into that.

Ever tried them? I found MDMA to be quite enjoyable. Psilocybin - not so much.

 

[Pinball1970]

Ever tried them? I found MDMA to be quite enjoyable. Psilocybin - not so much.

Yes. MDMA makes you happy in same way a few beers makes you relaxed, predictable mostly.
Mushrooms takes you where the hell it's going to take you at that moment.

One nice thing though, you can remember details, unlike being very drunk when an entire evening can evaporate from your memory forever.

Donington rock festival a friend and I went wandering off to some woods to take a leak. The effects were hitting us and as we turned back to look for our camp I noticed it was raised a little on a hill, with a large tent a fire chairs and I could see our group.
The whole scene kind of morphed into stone henge, they were centre, fire lighting the structure up against the night sky.

I can still see the image, beautiful.

However, like dreams, we can sometimes control them and sometimes not.

Alcohol is enough for me these days.

 

[Ken Fabian]

There are different kinds of dementia. It seems unlikely the progressive loss of brain volume with Alzheimer's would be stopped or reversed, even if some temporary improvements in symptoms are evident.

 

[exchemist]

There are different kinds of dementia. It seems unlikely the progressive loss of brain volume with Alzheimer's would be stopped or reversed, even if some temporary improvements in symptoms are evident.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that, merely that there could conceivably be some palliative, temporary recovery of function under the influence of this neurotransmitter mimicking drug.

 

[TheVat]

Tried mescaline (from cactus, chemically similar to MDMA) but not psilocybin (from shroom). Mescaline lasts a little longer, but is considered fairly similar in its biochemical pathways and fx. Mesc is more lucid, and goes more towards dopamine receptors. The experience was reinforcing my love of nature - the figurative "treehugger" became more literal for me. And no barfing, which apparently is unusual when one chews the cactus buttons - nausea is quite common and I had none at all. (A native person told me that my not vomiting was actually a missed opportunity, as that was supposed to start the trip with a purging of negative emotions)

Mescaline is a phenethylamine (structurally similar to dopamine and norepinephrine). Psilocybin is a tryptamine (structurally similar to serotonin -- ---- and the metabolized psilocin acts directly on the serotonin receptors). Mescaline and psilocybin are both considered serotonergic psychedelics, even though mescaline affects serotonin uptake as a secondhand effect. Anyway, they both induce psychedelic effects through action at serotonin 5-HT2A receptors. Since mescaline also is dopaminergic, you get the bonuses of dopamine action like focus and attention being rewarded and enhanced memory formation to a greater degree than psilocybin. So I'm speculating that the patient in the trial might benefit from a mix which included mescaline (or it's non-barfing MDMA cousin) and could possibly fix her experience better in memory and sense of satisfaction.