How reliable are the T.N.Kh./ Old Testament prophecies, and how do we know?

[Jeeves]

The weeks mean periods of 7 years,

Why? So then days actually mean years and hours mean days and a 'month' is 26 years, and a 'year' is actually 364 years. Be hard to work out the tides and vacation schedules. Wouldn't it be simpler to just call weeks weeks?

and "flood" is used as a reference to war

So, that means Noah's big flood was really a very big war?
...or that any destructive event can stand in for any other destructive event, at the interpreter's convenience.
Wouldn't it be simpler to call war 'war' and flood 'flood'?

Prophecy, therefore, is absolutely reliable, if you read it correctly: After [something] had come to pass, [somebody] [sometime] in [some analogous terminology and eccentric arithmetic] had accurately predicted it.

 

[spidergoat]

Jesus took on the religious and political Judean establishment with his social criticisms. That's a big motivator for the establishment not to accept him.

The major reason was that the Judean religious and political establishment were populated solely by Roman appointments. Anything you said against them would be grounds for execution.

 

[karenmansker]

I quote but the it does not show up and yet it appears.
I dont know what is wrong but I cant edit.
All I wanted to add was thebible gives a great account of creation.
Who was the witness of creation?
If there was no witness the account must be made up.
A great start... Even the start of the story is made up.
Alex

" . . . .gives a great account of creation . . . . if there was no witness of the account it must be made up . . . ." a theist would say the 'account' was provided by the creator to someone who passed it (account) to someone . . . to someone . . . . to someone . . . . . etc. . . . . then to someone who wrote-up the account as given in Genesis. BTW: Big Bang, Black Holes, etc. are also 'unproven' accounts promulgated-as fact by our current 'scientific gods', based on their observations. Perhaps someday, someone will ask your same questions of our current hypotheses.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Perhaps someday, someone will ask your same questions of our current hypotheses.

Hi Karen.
I often see a parrallel.

And I wonder if science has it wrong but hopefully, unlike religion, science can amend the models as new data presents via observation.

Science is better structured to change than religion.

Alex

 

[Jeeves]

BTW: Big Bang, Black Holes, etc. are also 'unproven' accounts promulgated-as fact by our current 'scientific gods', based on their observations.

Their collective observations and calculations, yes. Not undocumented 'someones' passing it down by word of mouth, in half a dozen different languages before it's ever recorded.
BTW: 'scientific gods' is not an accepted label within the scientific community; no, nor even 'prophets'. I wish you'd refrain from such hyperbolic mischaracterization.

Perhaps someday, someone will ask your same questions of our current hypotheses.

They do. Every day. And that's how come science has made more progress than religion over the last thousand years.
Well, that, and not being necessary to the elevation of rulers and oppression of masses.

 

[timojin]

Their

They do. Every day. And that's how come science has made more progress than religion over the last thousand years.
.

Religion does not need to make progress , Is the people that need to stay close to the commandments of God , that would be a progress,

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Religion does not need to make progress ,

Well there is your problem as Adam from Mythbusters would say.

Without an ability to cherry pick the bible it how can anyone treat it as credible.

Would it not reach more people if it were edited to keep it in step with the world of today.
These days folk can read and if they read it in its current outdated form they are note likely to throw it out than retain it as a meaningful guide.

Is the people that need to stay close to the commandments of God , that would be a progress,

But Tim today the world is more complex and there is more to follow than the ten commandments.

They say nothing about how to regulate conduct of motor vehicles for example not that it need but that points to is lack of being up to date.

I understand within the bible we find how to be proper in the management of slaves but do you not think Labour Laws perhaps more appropriate.

In part it is the inability to rectify obvious problems that probably sees many people disregarding any good message the bible may have to offer.

Alex

 

[Jeeves]

Religion does not need to make progress , Is the people that need to stay close to the commandments of God , that would be a progress,

Okay.
With science people have made progress. This is not a value judgment; it simply means that there has been change over time: increased complexity,
new levels of understanding and capability built upon previous levels, supported by the foundation of sound scientific methodology.

With religion, people have not learned to stay close to the commandments of God. They couldn't do it when they received such commandments and still can't do it now.
Even though religion has been in the human realm so much longer than science and come in so many more forms and codes and gods and rituals.

 

[timojin]

Well there is your problem as Adam from Mythbusters would say.

Without an ability to cherry pick the bible it how can anyone treat it as credible.

Would it not reach more people if it were edited to keep it in step with the world of today.
These days folk can read and if they read it in its current outdated form they are note likely to throw it out than retain it as a meaningful guide.



But Tim today the world is more complex and there is more to follow than the ten commandments.

They say nothing about how to regulate conduct of motor vehicles for example not that it need but that points to is lack of being up to date.

I understand within the bible we find how to be proper in the management of slaves but do you not think Labour Laws perhaps more appropriate.

In part it is the inability to rectify obvious problems that probably sees many people disregarding any good message the bible may have to offer.

Alex

I don't care how complex the society is or will be .
The whole bible is Love thy GOD with whole you heart and love thy fellow man as yourself . That is the whole Bible of thousands pages, remember we have to digest this two commandments . The volume of writing are examples and consequences. So one does not have to look for non realistic sentences and find all sorts of excuses to deny the validity of the book.
I am practising German, and use Google translator from Spanish , Russian and English to German , you will be surprised the so called error from one language to other. So imagine all the translation the bible went. Therefore the translation have to be within the frame as I mentioned in the second line of this post.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

I don't care how complex the society is or will be .

I can see a benefit in your approach and must say I don't care much about society as if that has not been evident in my approach in general.

love thy fellow man as yourself

I agree with that wholeheartedly.
And it is a pity that if nothing else that God, pretending he does exist, could not have built that into our make up rather than, as your religion would have it, to give us free will to either accept or reject that fine principle.
If I were God I would see to it that just as a mother loves her child that all people would love each other in the same fashion.
How wonderful would the world be.
Hate would not exist, war probably would not be understood, men would respect women...you could make a list where things would be better if all were driven by fundamental respect for all others.
And would it not be wonderful if we could extend respect for all living things and indeed the planet itself.

So one does not have to look for non realistic sentences and find all sorts of excuses to deny the validity of the book.

But we will and it is my contention that we have a propensity to find fault and ask would it not be better to eliminate, what will be seized upon by some, the very ones that probably would benefit from evidence, to reject the beneficial teaching, the things that cause them to reject the bible as not relevant.

I don't believe God exists however I think there is a place for an authority to guide morality to some degree.
We have our laws but they too have to be sifted through to determine what the community uses as a moral base for the copious legislation to regulate behaviour and relationships.

Thanks Tim for your input other than the issue as to God existing I think we may somewhat be in agreement.
Alex

 

[Jeeves]

Maybe the mistake God made was not in the thousand pages trying to convey two sentences, but in the chosen people.
Maybe it should have been the chosen termites or the chosen three-toed sloths.
But they didn't need a god.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Maybe it should have been the chosen termites or the chosen three-toed sloths.

I think cats were the first choice but they....well you know how cats can be.
Alex

 

[timojin]

Maybe the mistake God made was not in the thousand pages trying to convey two sentences, but in the chosen people.
Maybe it should have been the chosen termites or the chosen three-toed sloths.
But they didn't need a god.

It was said to the first human . Or you to your children " don't do that " but they did what they wanted, so what do you do or did to them as they disobey. What does take and how long until they started to listen or obey you ?

 

[Jeeves]

It was said to the first human . Or you to your children " don't do that " but they did what they wanted, so what do you do or did to them as they disobey. What does take and how long until they started to listen or obey you ?

I water-board them first thing in the morning. After a hearty breakfast of wormwood, I make them toil in the fields, walk thu the valley of the shadow of death, and lead them into temptation. I exhort them to kill their pets and cut the skin off their tiny peckers; then I throw down some dried fungus for a snack and I smite them left and right for talking to the neighbour kids. In the afternoon, when the new, pure baby's been born to the fourteen-year-old servant girl, I drive her out into the desert, wait till he's old enough to be absolutely obedient, then I nail him to a hydro pole, as an example to the bad kid. Then I make them kneel and tell me how wonderful I am.
And still they keep on being human! What's a Sky-daddy to do? I've tried drowning the little bastards; maybe it's time for a good conflagration....
And, lo, I have given to the world the last Trump.

 

[timojin]

I water-board them first thing in the morning. After a hearty breakfast of wormwood, I make them toil in the fields, walk thu the valley of the shadow of death, and lead them into temptation. I exhort them to kill their pets and cut the skin off their tiny peckers; then I throw down some dried fungus for a snack and I smite them left and right for talking to the neighbour kids. In the afternoon, when the new, pure baby's been born to the fourteen-year-old servant girl, I drive her out into the desert, wait till he's old enough to be absolutely obedient, then I nail him to a hydro pole, as an example to the bad kid. Then I make them kneel and tell me how wonderful I am.
And still they keep on being human! What's a Sky-daddy to do? I've tried drowning the little bastards; maybe it's time for a good conflagration....
And, lo, I have given to the world the last Trump.

I grant you, you just posted a nonsense that come out of your mind

That is what a human does because of its free will

 

[Jeeves]

I grant you, you just posted a nonsense that come out of your mind

No, That nonsense comes straight out of The Good Book.
Except the water-boarding; that's modern. We can change that bit to hives and buboes and sitting on a dung-heap, if you prefer.

 

[spidergoat]

That is the whole Bible of thousands pages, remember we have to digest this two commandments .

This is the kind of weak answer theists give when pressed to defend all the horrible teachings in the Bible. Sorry dude, the book exists and Christians study it in detail, it influences their lives, and anyone who interacts with them.

 

[spidergoat]

Is the people that need to stay close to the commandments of God , that would be a progress,

Oh no, I made a graven image! How regressive of me to make an art.

 

[Ted Grant II]

What makes those prophecies reliable, and how does the prophecy function?

If a prophesy is written after the event, then it's reliable. Most prophesies are trivial - "there will be wars, earthquakes, rain, hunger, scabs".
Some are silly. Jesus said, " there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth". He said this millions of times, obviously exaggerating.
One gets the distinct impression that he looked forward to all this wailing and gnashing, like when my son says, "There will be jelly and ice-cream!".
The function of a prophecy is unknown. It might be entertainment or an attempt to change people's behavior or a warning of impending doom.
An example of the latter might be "global temperatures will continue to rise and it will have a catastrophic effect on the human race".
Magician's often use prophesies, for example, "Lock me in the tank and I will escape".
Some prophesies cannot be confirmed, such as, "Lo, the virgin shall conceive, and she shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel".

 

[Ted Grant II]

If evidence contains any part that is wrong you should treat the lot as suspect.

Agreed. If you buy a used car and the next day a wheel falls off, you don't assume the other three are OK.