How is prayer supposed to work?

[Jan Ardena]

Dave

You lied about what my response was.
You claimed I said “magic” was how it works.
When you could not show where I said “Magic” was how it works, you changed your lie to, it works “simply because”.
What I actually said was “ because God allows it to work”, which is the basis of a theist perspective.

You then responded with “ Well put.
There's a term for something that only works on those predisposed to accept it. It's called confirmation bias”.

To which I responded by saying that is an understandable reaction from an atheist. Because the atheist does not believe in, or accept God, which as a consequence, the atheist does not accept any information that informs one of God’s character. As far as the atheist is concerned, he or she, sees nothing that relates to God. Am I correct so far?

So when I say “ because God allows it to”, I am responding from the the same platform of my perspective, like you do from yours.
So what we are left is an atheist perspective, and a theist perspective.
The atheist, by definition lacks a belief in God, and so, is not in the same position as someone who does not lack a belief in God.

So when I said, the atheist cannot comprehend the theist reaction, because they are atheist.
I am not attacking the atheist. I am basing it on the definition, in conjunction with this specific dialogue.

In short, it doesn’t matter what I, or any theist on this planet says on this subject matter, the atheist is predisposed to not accepting. If the atheist should accept, then the person is not an atheist. An atheist cannot, by definition, ever accept God, or theism.

Jan.

 

[billvon]

In short, it doesn’t matter what I, or any theist on this planet says on this subject matter, the atheist is predisposed to not accepting. If the atheist should accept, then the person is not an atheist. An atheist cannot, by definition, ever accept God, or theism.

From Wikipedia:

Atheists who converted to Catholicism

• Mortimer J. Adler – American philosopher, educator, and popular author; converted to Catholicism from agnosticism, after decades of interest in Thomism
• G. E. M. Anscombe – analytic philosopher, Thomist, literary executor for Ludwig Wittgenstein, and author of Modern Moral Philosophy; converted to Catholicism as a result of her extensive reading
• Benedict Ashley – raised humanist; former Communist; became a noted theologian associated with River Forest Thomism
• Maurice Baring – English author who converted in his thirties
• Mark Bauerlein – English professor at Emory University and the author of 2008 book The Dumbest Generation, which won at the Nautilus Book Awards
• Léon Bloy – French author who led to several notable conversions and was himself a convert from agnosticism
• Paul Bourget – French author who became agnostic and positivist at 15, but returned to Catholicism at 35
• Alexis Carrel – French surgeon and biologist who was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1912
• Alfred Döblin, German novelist, essayist and doctor, a former convert from Judaism to atheism
• Avery Dulles – Jesuit priest, theologian, and cardinal in the Catholic Church; was raised Presbyterian, but was an agnostic before his conversion to Catholic Christianity
• Alice Thomas Ellis – born Anna Haycraft, raised in Auguste Comte's atheistic "church of humanity", but became a conservative Catholic in adulthood known as Alice Thomas Ellis
• Edward Feser – Christian philosopher and author, wrote The Last Superstition: A Refutation of the New Atheism
• André Frossard – French journalist and essayist
• Maggie Gallagher – conservative activist and a founder of the National Organization for Marriage
• Eugene D. Genovese – historian who went from Stalinist to Catholicism
• Dawn Eden Goldstein – rock journalist of Jewish ethnicity; went from an agnostic to a Catholic, who was particularly concerned with the moral values of chastity
• Bill Hayden – The 21st Governor-General of Australia. In 1996 he was recognised as the Australian Humanist of the Year by the Council of Australian Humanist Societies.Baptized September 2018.
• Mary Karr – author of The Liars' Club; Guggenheim Fellow; once described herself as an "undiluted agnostic", but converted to a self-acknowledged "Cafeteria Catholicism" who embraces Pro-Choice views, amongst others
• Ignace Lepp – French psychiatrist whose parents were freethinkers and who joined the Communist party at age fifteen; broke with the party in 1937 and eventually became a Catholic priest
• Leah Libresco – popular (former) atheist blogger; her search for a foundation for her sense of morality led her to Christianity; she continues her blog under a new name, Unequally Yoked. Her blog readership has increased significantly since her conversion.
• Arnold Lunn – skier, mountaineer, and writer; as an agnostic he wrote Roman Converts, which took a critical view of Catholicism and the converts to it; later converted to Catholicism due to debating with converts, and became an apologist for the faith, although he retained a few criticisms of it
• Gabriel Marcel – leading Christian existentialist; his upbringing was agnostic
• Claude McKay – bisexual Jamaican poet who went from Communist-leaning atheist to an active Catholic Christian after a stroke
• Vittorio Messori – Italian journalist and writer called the "most translated Catholic writer in the world" by Sandro Magister; before his conversion in 1964 he had a "perspective as a secularist and agnostic"
• Czesław Miłosz – poet, prose writer, translator and diplomat; was awarded the Neustadt International Prize for Literature, and in 1980 the Nobel Prize in Literature

 

[BlueSky]

Yes atheists can and do convert all the time. I was one.

 

[DaveC426913]

When you could not show where I said “Magic” was how it works, you changed your lie to, it works “simply because”.

"Magic" and "simply because" are the same thing. That is my point. The fact that you cannot grasp this - and I have to explain it multiple times in multiple ways - does not make me a liar. It makes you - well - unable to grasp a simple concept.

When a question is "how" and the answer is "because" that is the criteria for magic. (note:small m not capital M).


To be explicit:

What I actually said was “ because God allows it to work”, which is the basis of a theist perspective.

The appellation of magic is not due to your appeal to God; it is due to your appeal to "because.." as an answer to a how question.

Or to put in tiny words - again: "because" does not answer "how".

 

[DaveC426913]

Or maybe Jan has an aversion to reading.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Those are the same thing. [\quote]

No they’re not.
Why don’t you just quote what I say, instead of making stuff up?

That is my point. The fact that you cannot grasp this, and require multiple explanations, looking for words you understand, does not make me a liar. It makes you - well - unable to grasp a simple concept.

It makes you a liar because you refuse to state what I actually said, replacing it with words of your own choosing, to make it seem as though I saying something that I’m not.

When a question is "how" and the answer is "because" that is the criteria for magic. (note:small m not capital M).

Q. How did Usain Bolt run so fast?
A. Because he trained hard.

Prayer works because God allows it to work.
It doesn’t work any other way.

I did the free to unpack it, but JM put her take between her legs and ran. Hence I played the chicken song.

She wants us to try and put a square peg into a round, by attempting to explain a purely conscious phenomenon, using mere physics, chemistry, and biology. She’s a trickster who got called out.

_Or to put in tiny words - again: "because" does not answer "how".

Already dealt with.

Jan.

 

[DaveC426913]

Why don’t you just quote what I say, instead of making stuff up?

Gladly. Here's all the rope you need:

[Q3] how do you believe it works?

[A3] Because God allows it to

Click the little arrow in the quote header to be taken directly to the passage that I am quoting you from.

And now you will admit that I did not make that up. You will admit that - in answer to a "how" question, you answered with a "because" - as I have had to re-assert about five times for your benefit and no one else's - certainly no to the benefit of the thread.

If you were a man who understood honest dialogue, you would now be saying mea culpa. Hey, miracles can happen.

 

[DaveC426913]

Jennifer, I'm painfully aware of how much this thread has degenerated. You asked "how", and you got "because". You can see why there will be no meaningful answer to your question - it's not that the answer won't sit well with you; it's that there will never come an actual answer at all.

We have multiple threads here, thousands of posts long, in which the resident theists, and Jan in particular as the most vocal, have dodged repeated direct questions about what God is, if there's any evidence, or anything else.

You can expect hundreds of posts of "All you have to do to believe is clap your hands." and "Can you repeat the question please, I'm pretending I didn't hear you."

They just don't have any answers.

Sorry. That's unfair. They just don't have any rational answers.


Do not take my word for it. The beauty of scientific analysis is that the data is all there, extant, for you to examine yourself, without bias.

 

[Jan Ardena]

And now you will admit that I did not make that up. You will admit that - in answer to a "how" question, you answered with a "because" - as I have had to re-assert about five times for your benefit and no one else's - certainly no to the benefit of the thread.

You are extremely dishonest.

Anyway, you said you can’t answer a “how” question with “because”. So explain this, what you conveniently left out.

Q. How did Usain Bolt run so fast?
A. Because he trained hard.

Prayer works because God allows it to work.
It doesn’t work any other way.

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Jennifer, I'm painfully aware of how much this thread has degenerated.

It’s degenerated for you, because you can’t deal with real responses. If it doesn’t fit into into you narrow purview, you get mardy, then you start with attacks. Pathetic!

Jan.

 

[BlueSky]

Jennifer, I'm painfully aware of how much this thread has degenerated. You asked "how", and you got "because". You can see why there will be no meaningful answer to your question - it's not that the answer won't sit well with you; it's that there will never come an actual answer at all.

We have multiple threads here, thousands of posts long, in which the resident theists, and Jan in particular as the most vocal, have dodged repeated direct questions about what God is, if there's any evidence, or anything else.

You can expect hundreds of posts of "All you have to do to believe is clap your hands." and "Can you repeat the question please, I'm pretending I didn't hear you."

They just don't have any answers.

Sorry. That's unfair. They just don't have any rational answers.


Do not take my word for it. The beauty of scientific analysis is that the data is all there, extant, for you to examine yourself, without bias.

I have not read the entire thread. If you wondering “how” God answers prayer, there really is not one. No knows or understands how such a supernatural entity can do what it says he can do in Bible. It’s a complete mystery.

It’s tells us why, and when ( for past people’s of the earth ) and for what reasons he would answer. He tells us many things about prayer in scripture, but to actually describe a detailed scientific reason for “how” no one knows this. This fact does not negate its reality however.

God loves to give good things those who love him and who know Him and if it fits within the overal plan of redemption. He likes to give good things to obedient children, not unlike how we deal with our kids. We don’t always get what we want because he sees a bigger picture, like an adult. I said no to countless things my kids asked for over the years for good reason!

The bible tells us God is a spirit, who dwells in unapproachable light. The answers are there, it’s just some people don’t like them.

This might help. From https://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-prayer.html

It’s probable the best shortest answer could provide. As I said before, large books are written on the subject. It works, I’ve seen it happen to me and friends.

Question: "What is prayer?"

Answer: The most basic definition of prayer is “talking to God.” Prayer is not meditation or passive reflection; it is direct address to God. It is the communication of the human soul with the Lord who created the soul. Prayer is the primary way for the believer in Jesus Christ to communicate his emotions and desires with God and to fellowship with God.

Prayer can be audible or silent, private or public, formal or informal. All prayer must be offered in faith (James 1:6), in the name of the Lord Jesus (John 16:23), and in the power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26). As the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia puts it, “Christian prayer in its full New Testament meaning is prayer addressed to God as Father, in the name of Christ as Mediator, and through the enabling grace of the indwelling Spirit” (“Prayer” by J. C. Lambert). The wicked have no desire to pray (Psalm 10:4), but the children of God have a natural desire to pray (Luke 11:1).

Prayer is described in the Bible as seeking God’s favor (Exodus 32:11), pouring out one’s soul to the Lord (1 Samuel 1:15), crying out to heaven (2 Chronicles 32:20), drawing near to God (Psalm 73:28, KJV), and kneeling before the Father (Ephesians 3:14).

Paul wrote, “Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 4:6–7). Worry about nothing; pray about everything.

Everything? Yes, God wants us to talk with Him about everything. How often should we pray? The biblical answer is “pray without ceasing” (1 Thessalonians 5:17). We should keep a running conversation going with God all day long. Some find the ACTS formula of prayer helpful, but there is really no special formula for how to pray in the Bible. We should just do it. We can pray under any and all circumstances. Prayer develops our relationship with God and demonstrates our trust and utter dependence upon Him.

Prayer is the Christian’s way of communicating with God. We pray to praise God and thank Him and tell Him how much we love Him. We pray to enjoy His presence and tell Him what is going on in our lives. We pray to make requests and seek guidance and ask for wisdom. God loves this exchange with His children, just as we love the exchange we have with our children. Fellowship with God is the heart of prayer. Too often we lose sight of how simple prayer is really supposed to be.

When we make petitions to God, we let God know exactly where we stand and what we would like to see happen. In our prayers, we must admit that God is greater than we are and ultimately knows what is best in any given situation (Romans 11:33–36). God is good and asks us to trust Him. In prayer, we say, essentially, “Not my will, but your will be done.” The key to answered prayer is praying according to the will of God and in accordance with His Word. Prayer is not seeking our own will but seeking to align ourselves with the will of God more fully (1 John 5:14–15; James 4:3).

The Bible contains many examples of prayer and plenty of exhortations to pray (see Luke 18:1; Romans 12:12; and Ephesians 6:18). God’s house is to be a house of prayer (Mark 11:17), and God’s people are to be people of prayer: “Dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in God’s love” (Jude 1:20–21).

 

[Seattle]

@Seatle

Don’t worry about it.

Jan.

Could you define what you mean by "worry"?

 

[DaveC426913]

Q. How did Usain Bolt run so fast?
A. Because he trained hard.

If the OP had asked "How does Bolt run so fast? Does he run 10 miles a day? Does he eat raw eggs? Does he train in a gym? How long might it take"
Then "because he trains" would not be sufficient.

And she did. The OP has asked specific questions about how it actually works, in the eyes of theists. Not about what God does, but about what the praying person can expect to happen.

Your response - specifically to the question of how it works (not how God works but how prayer works) - dodges all that with a "because it just does" hand-waving. It does nothing for the OP. The OP was clear and verbose about what kind of "how" she is looking for.

It’s degenerated for you...

It's degenerated for the OP. She was clear, both on what she was asking, and that your responses are not useful.

If this defensive position isn't just about your ego, then we could both stop wasting phosphor.

 

[DaveC426913]

When we make petitions to God, we let God know exactly where we stand and what we would like to see happen.

OK, and then ... what happens?
The OP's questions revolve around what does the praying accomplish?

 

[Dywyddyr]

The bible tells us God is a spirit, who dwells in unapproachable light. The answers are there, it’s just some people don’t like them

Of course, those "answers" cannot be shown to be correct.

It works, I’ve seen it happen to me and friends.

This is an assumption of yours, not a fact.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Could you define what you mean by "worry"?

Don’t get your panties in a twist.

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

OK, and then ... what happens?
The OP's questions revolve around what does the praying accomplish?

It’s not my quote.
Pathetic!
Not to mention desparate.

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

If the OP had asked "How does Bolt run so fast?

Paaaaaaathetic.!!!!!
You’re just desparate to come out on top.
Aren’t you?
You’ve no integrity

And she did. The OP has asked specific questions about how it actually works, in the eyes of theists. Not about what God does, but about what the praying person can expect to happen.

The OP was designed by a trickster and a troll, who scarpered the moment she realised she’d been nobbled.
At least you don’t run. I’ll give you that.

Jan.

 

[DaveC426913]

The OP was designed by a trickster and a troll,

Oh certainly. Anyone who asks reasonable questions about God must be a trickster and a troll.

An observation: You are always on the lookout for motives. You perceive threats behind every corner. It defines your participation here.

The beauty of rational thought is that there is nothing to fear. And no one even has to take anyone's word for it, because facts are out there to find, not locked in someone's heart.

I do not fear motives. Facts are facts. It matters naught why they ask their questions; valid answers are immune to motive.


Further: I'm OK with you calling out 'pathetic' repeatedly. It stands as testament to the fact that you have given up addressing the discussion.

The "just because" gaff has been thoroughly dismantled. Good riddance.

 

[Jan Ardena]

The "just because" gaff has been thoroughly dismantled. Good riddance.

Why are you so angry?

Further: I'm OK with you calling out 'pathetic' repeatedly. It stands as testament to the fact that you have given up addressing the discussion.

I haven’t given up at all.
Your whole attitude in this thread has been pathetic.

Jan.