How does it feel to be poor?

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by lixluke, Sep 18, 2006.

  1. baumgarten fuck the man Registered Senior Member

    I'm fine, but thanks for asking.
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  3. lixluke Refined Reinvention Valued Senior Member

    Who cares?
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  5. baumgarten fuck the man Registered Senior Member

    Your response indicates you do. Thank you for caring.
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  7. Oniw17 ascetic, sage, diogenes, bum? Valued Senior Member

    So, explain to me. So far the only thing that you've explained is how many times you've explained your soluition.
  8. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    I see.

    I forget sometimes about the fact that the mentally ill have computers, internet access... and can type.

    My condolences.
  9. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

    How am I a slave? Work is not slavery. I enjoy what I do, no one is forcing me, and no one is coercing me. I found something I enjoyed and became good enough at it to make a living at it. Then I found other things I enjoyed and was good at and put them to work for me.

    If I wanted to rid myself of society I am quite capable of self-survival and could live off the land in some remote region on my own. But I've tried that, albeit for only short periods of time, and it's even more work and drudgery and it's not nearly as rewarding. So I choose to participate, in some things I venture alone or with a few others, in others I join a larger cooperative effort. I'm under no obligation.

    What I do find horrible is doing nothing. I'm always amazed to find people who are perfectly content to do nothing.
    What a boring life, full of empty self-gratification, the lowest form of pleasure.

    I challenge you to try something new. Go work at a soup-kitchen this Thanksgiving. Or volunteer a weekend with Habitat for Humanity. Even better, this winter go buy a few blankets or some winter gloves or make some cups of hot coffee and hand them out to the homeless living on the street. Do this and you'll know how to find that utopia you claim to be looking for because I assure you it isn't sitting there in front of your TV next to your x-box or in the gym.

    And you don't think that a system that coddles and cares for you as if you were a child makes you dependent?!?

    You're not asking for freedom CS, you're asking for utter dependency. To have freedom you must have risk, you must have responsibility. I don't want protection, I don't want security, I don't need someone to hold my hand when I cross the street, or to tell me what's good or bad for me. It is my choice. It is my responsibility. This is what it means to be free. If you want to run and hide from the world that's your choice, it is not mine. You cannot relinquish responsibility without relinquishing liberty in equal measure.

    Ah, but what fun is a game if its not challenging? No one wins this game; we leave with what we arrived with. All that matters is what you do while you're here. Those that you complain about have very little control. Why do you think their actions are so desperate, so violent? Watch them, learn, and understand what's going on.

    It's obvious you're not a drone but you are still under control. Do you really think they haven't taken rebellion into account? Rebellion is no danger to them; it plays right into their hand. You'll be suppressed, incarcerated, or marginalized. I'll share with you my own epiphany on the subject; by reacting, even negatively, as a matter of route you are no less being controlled than those that submit. Here's the key, if you play the game intelligently you gain control, and then you can do what you want. You can even help to change the rules of the game.

    You do have a choice. You can choose what game to play and how to play it. But you have to play some game. You strive to survive or you die. No one here made up that rule, that's just the way life is.

    If you leech off the system that I contribute to, I am supporting you.

    Rights are not entitlements. Rights are what you have and should never be deprived of. Rights are not something that someone can give you, they can only be surpressed. This is why they require diligent protection. Entitlements are demands upon someone else. You do not have that right. To demand it abridges the freedom of another.

  10. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

    Maybe you are not the rule?
  11. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

    I am lucky in that I have many interests and I live in a "1st world" country. So I had more options than most. It's not perfect. There are trade offs. You account for them while making your choices. But being a farmer out of necessity is not being a slave either.

    There are some things that are in serious need of work. Again, education is primary. But one can also self educate. A strong agricultural base and supportive infrastructure are key to developing nations, who often get themselves into trouble by going into massive debt trying to jump-start themselves into a modern economy before building the basics. I would say the UN needs to act more decisively in its attempts to moderate civil and international wars but its full of politicians serving their own political causes and thus only has the ability to blow hot air around. Barriers to trade need to continue to be slowly eliminated. There are myriad things we can do to improve things.

  12. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

    Yes, all very true.

    However if I may make remark concerning the notion 'how does it feel to be poor'. Maybe the idea of being a slave has become stronger in the minds of many because of the increasing inequality and the feeling that nothing is done anymore for the people? It's all about economic growth. And I am sure someone could now write something on how economic growth is good for the people, but a large portion of the people do not seem to feel they are an equal part of society anymore.

    Rights previous generations fought for as discarded at whim at the moment to further the wealth of the rich. Unions are curbed. Firing people is being made easier. None of the new focus is on what makes society and could this not have an effect on the mental state of the average civilian. They are just here to make other people rich. Society is taking away from them and giving to a few.

    in conclusion, is there really not a movement going on in modern day society that justifies the claim that more and more people start to feel like they are nothing more than slaves?
  13. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Not in the sense that you've implied. But I do think that more and more people are actually in an "enslaved" condition, but it's their own doing! It's their own debts, Spurious, that's gotten most people into that situation ....their debts keep them enslaved to their employers, but again, it's by their own choosing, their own choice. But it's so much more convienent to blame someone else for their own problems than to place the blame onto themselves!

    And isn't that like hanging yourself by the neck with a rope, then complaining that it's all the rope's fault??

    Baron Max
  14. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

    Show that it is their own fault.
  15. lixluke Refined Reinvention Valued Senior Member

    No I do not. You are a troll.

    I’m not going to go back and quote myself.

    The point is the psychology of many that are completely under the impression that they are not slaves. More specifically participants in a system (or game if you will) that is not controlled by the people, is not intellectual, is completely dysfunctional from the ground up.

    Nobody HAS to be a productive member of society. That is slavery. There is nothing wrong with wanting everybody to be productive, but imposing productive obligation is. Your attitude is what makes everybody unproductive. You have an attitude that people HAVE to be a productive member of society. You do not believe in choice.

    A true First World says that if any individual within our society, feels that their society is mistreating them (oppression) they should not support it, but refuse cooperation, and choose retaliation.

    Much of the violence and other forms of violent and nonviolent retaliations are a result of a system that has the attitude that they HAVE to be a productive member of society despite society’s inability to treat them with equality, and compensate them for their efforts.

    No single person in a true First World lives in lack of a very well functioning standard of living. Such as posed in the questionnaire. You claim that nobody such has the rights to such standards, and yet everybody has the obligation to be a productive member of a crap world country.
    Explain yourself.

    I’ll repost this. These are not all, but a decent summary of the amenities the public can and should be afforded. Nobody has the obligation to support or be a productive member of any society in such as many people in this thread continue to impose. The fact is, all have the obligation not to support and be productive of a society that does not live up to First World standards that all are entitled to.
    (Why are all entitled to the following standard? For no other reason that we are human beings that have the technology and capacity for such standards. We would be fools not to demand a cleaner earth, and a true First World standard of living.

    steady supply of fresh real natural foods for consumption
    steady supply of clean pure water
    herbal and natural body chemistry plan for specifically alleviating any ailments you might have
    a place to sleep to call your own (Ownership meaning you do not have to pay anybody for it in the form of rent or taxes. You own your place like you own your underwear.)
    a set of clothing articles
    a clean place to use the bathroom
    facilities and a steady supply of items for personal care and beauty
    full access and facilities for physical fitness, mind/body development, community relationship development
    steady supply of items needed for cleaning your territory and belongings
    free from physical violence, captivity, and forced labor
    medical care and services for emergencies
    planet and environment being cared for, nurtured, and cultivated
    access to all statistics and information about the institute you and your neighbors own
    full access to a high standard of curriculum of intelligent general education
    no highly stratified amounts of wealth and amenities
    free from discrimination in your dealings and services
    regular safe flow of energy in your community, communications, and easy access to venues
    free to choose to serve society willingly over any communist obligation to be a productive member of society?

    Any society that imposes obligation to individuals is not a society that is about freedom. It is never ceases to amaze me how Americans speak of being free, and at the same time speak of obligation to the country. It is simple double speak of 1984. Clear classic mass manipulation.
    A free country does not impose obligation on individuals, especially, when they do not live by many of the simple practical requirements of true First World Standards as summarized above.

    No. This is exactly what I am talking about.
    It's not slavery as in actual shackles and forced labor.
    It is "I found something that I am good at, and blah bah blah."
    This is totally pathetic. It is the typical meanderings of a good little drone.
    How about screw these assholes. I am only here because this is the best I can get. I can only do my best to provide for those who I care for as well as the homeless which I would not have to do if my country my country was not doing a suck job. As I participate in efforts to clean up the mess that my country has made by supporting such organizations dedicated to cleaning up after America’s incompetence, I know for bleeding sure that I am not contributing to any permanent solution.

    WTF? Do I look like I have time for this crap?
    I have lived in homeless shelters before. The conditions are substandard. The conditions of this entire country are way substandard.

    1. You are a moron for insinuating anybody ever claimed to be looking for utopia.
    2. Nobody ever mentioned sitting t in front of TV/Xbox/gym.

    Every time somebody talks about practical city design, there is automatically a negative connotation instead of a positive one. This is how backwards our culture is. A functional culture has the opposite attitude.

    These attitudes are manifest whenever people speak of city design and social improvement. They talk about idealism in a negative connotation. This does is not reality based perception. They talk about ho realistic their culturally demented views are. This is not reality based perception. They throw out terms such as ‘utopia’, ‘idealist’, ‘human nature’, and other terms in a negative connotation

    I do not even use the term utopia because it has been cursed with many negative connotations. Nor does it have any relevance.

    Let us for example define utopia as the perfect society in which everybody is happy.
    Let us now pursue utopia.
    Let us now not pursue utopia.
    Either way the pursuit or lack of pursuit of such a society is irrelevant.
    It is not that such a society exists or does not exist. It is that it’s existence is irrelevant.

    What is relevant?
    1. Elimination of negative connotations of progressive city design as fantastical, unrealistic, impractical, radical, and worst of all, impossible.
    2. These cultural connotations are a fallacy in terms of assessing and analyzing proposals. When addressing proposals, one can question the methods and principals involved. Approaching proposals in subjective to cultural fallacies is not a clear perception of reality.
    3. City design is necessary, it is practical, it is realistic, it is important, and it is necessary.

    You cannot ask a question if utopia fantasy idealism is bad or not because it simply does not apply. It is a cultural fallacy concept with the purpose of discrediting anything based on itself. This is the epitome of circular reasoning.

    This is not an issue. All communities from tribals to major civilization are communities of interdependence.
    You are independent in that you are free to do what you will as of your choice.
    Dependence is the dependence on a crap salary to make ends meet. That is a society of dependence. That is the furthest thing from independence.
    Society should not be teaching humans how to think. It should be teaching humans how to think for themselves.

    When talking about dependence and independence, reality mandates that all humans are dependent on personal maintenance.
    In the book I am writing, “The Guide to Life”, the category 1 human objective is personal care. Addressing physical needs.
    When you ask if I think I am not dependent on a society using loaded terms such as “coddled”, it shows your crab mentality. Everybody no matter who you are is relegated to the necessities of personal physical care. Technology creates an enormous benefit in our ability to receive personal care.

    False and irrelevant. We are not even discussing risk. Nobody “must” have any such thing as an intangible concept such as risk. Freedom is freedom period. Freedom means you do not have to do anything more than violate the freedom of others. I have described freedom all over this forum.
    Freedom is the lack of freedom to violate the freedom of others. Nothing more and nothing less. It is not risk or responsibility.
    You are truly free when your rights are not being violated by others. Your imposition of obligation in exchange for freedom is double speak 1984. Freedom = Slavery.

    Other than the lack of freedom to violate the rights of others, freedom is nothing else. It is and most importantly is the lack of any sort of obligation that the law imposes or that the masses feel they wish to impose. Nobody is obligated to participate in a system that is disfunctional. If anything, we are obligated to eradicate it.

    Stop strawmanning everything. The whole cultural stupidity is not only circular reasoning, it is blatant strawman.

    Speak for yourself.

    Nobody is talking about a video game that was specifically created to be challenging.
    We are talking about city design that creates technology so taking care of the earth and humanity need not be so challenging.

    Such as yourself?
    Nobody is talking about physical submission. Anybody can go work for the system and play use the system specifically for the purpose of destroying the system.
    This is not submission.
    Submission is abiding by their game in their way.
    We are all “forced” to play a game that is structured for their benefit.
    Now if you are dropped into the matrix or the cube, you have to find your way out.
    Submission is accepting that the fallacy that there is no way out, lying down, and dying like the rest of these brainwashed idiots. “Oh I am rich and har har har yet I live a complete lie under an illusion.”
    Red pill or blue pill? The red pill might not be the happy one, but it at least it is a real one.

    You do not have a choice. You HAVE to play the game whether you like it or not. The only ones that do have a choice are the game masters. It is they that need to be eliminated. When it comes to player versus player, it might not be as difficult. When it comes to player versus game master, this is where it gets complicated.

    You are an idiot. You cannot even answer the question.
    There is a difference between supporting somebody, and somebody taking their money.
    I have said it a billion times on this forum. There is no such thing as a poor person that is a leech.
    What makes you think money that should go to support poor people can possibly be leeching.
    Leeches are the rich. The rich are the parasites.
    The point is to take as much money from the real leeches and all the idiots that support them, so you never have to lift a finger for those bastards.
    If anything, you should be happy it goes straight to me. There are thousands of places tax money can go. There is no place I would rather see my tax dollars (that have been stripped away from me as a result of my own forced labor) go than to poor people so they do not have to endure the crap that I have to.

    We have our rights, and are entitled to their protection. It is a demand, and it is an ethical demand. What is unethical is the deprivation of our rights. Inequality of one individual’s rights being protected over another individual’s rights. This is not freedom or equality.
  16. lixluke Refined Reinvention Valued Senior Member

    You obviously do not know the meaning of a true first world.
  17. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Hmm, is that then the "True First World" according to CoolSkill? ...LOL!

    You're pretty funny, ya' know that? Just think about it seem to know everything that there is to know ....and not only that, but you're an expert in all those things, too. Are you humble, also?

    Baron Max
  18. baumgarten fuck the man Registered Senior Member

    Your lips say no, but your body says yes.
  19. lixluke Refined Reinvention Valued Senior Member

    I do not claim to know everything.
    I talk about what I am an expert on, and I ask about what I do not understand. If anybody can provide proper insight on what I am mistaken about, I welcome it gladly.

    Either way, it has nothing to do with the points at hand.
  20. lixluke Refined Reinvention Valued Senior Member

    Keep posting trollish comments. Nobody gives a crap.
  21. baumgarten fuck the man Registered Senior Member

    Poor nobody.
  22. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    That's not enough to measure, however. How would you measure otherwise, then?

    The government is still in the Stone age. They still use paper and have a lot of layers of work to be done. Meanwhile, corporations have it all automatized by using computers and information technology.

    I've had quite an experience with the government. For instance, I usually have to send them my new address several times before they update it. Once, they took an entire year to update my address! And when I didn't pay a bill that was sent to an address I had one year before, they threatened me! :bugeye:

    No, that's not how I see it. Mansions barely have any functional value at all. They have no purpose. And while the money goes back to people, that mansion is still an asset which is valued above its cost of construction.

    And that's not a waste of resources? The material used to build something with barely any functional value could have been used to build a school, for example. What is the opportunity cost of a mansion? Isn't that why we examine opportunity cost? So that we can choose where to allocate our resources? You are just looking at the labour part. That's only a small portion of it. But most of the resources used are direct and indirect materials!

    It's not that simple at all. The marginal propensity to save is directly proportional to disposable income. If you have little, chances are you are going to save very little. Think about it. If I earn just enough to survive, what do I have left to save? Well, nothing! That's why CS calls it "slavery". It's because people in poverty are trapped. They cannot save, simply because they need to survive! If I only have enough money to pay rent and food, how much do I have left to save? And even if you try to get a better job, expenses tend to grow as well. The middle class is usually not much better off, altough they have more of a chance. To compare, a rich person has a very large potential marginal propensity to save because their disposable income more then covers their expenses, even if they indulge themselves.

    Disposable income, standard of living and cost of living are useless measurements by themselves. But when you put them together, you can understand this situation much better.

    The problem is that the schools system does not teach you how to properly allocate resources (unless you are going into accounting, of course). So most people don't actually learn how to perceive and manage money the same way the rich do. Hell, I didn't know for a long time. I'm only getting better at it because I'm studying accounting (yes, I did that on purpose)!

    So a long time ago, people said everyone should have access to education so that they could be free. But the government and the rich outsmarted the people again and used the educational system to maintain them in power. They don't want anyone to know how they make money! And they want to "enslave" people! So they shape the educational system accordingly!

    I agree. Until "cash is not the issue". If you have no cash, how do you invest? Of course if you don't know how to manage it properly, it becomes useless. But that's not the only problem.

    Yes, there are ways to save money and even make money from no money. I live in an apartment, however.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Risk is another big issue. Risk is inversely proportional to experience. If you have no experience, you have great risk. If you are very experienced, you are minimizing the risk. For instance, you have a great accountant that does his just perfectly. But when you need a heart surgery, would you allow your accountant to do it? Would that be risky? And how does a poor person gain experience and, therefore, minimize risk?

    How many were educated properly?

    How do you do it? How would poor people find out?

    I think CS is actually complaining about corruption......
  23. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

    I can't argue whether or not people feel like salves. If they do, then they do. And certainly there are inequalities, but other than raising the bottom line through the provisioning of a base line of support I cannot think of a way to avoid it. But I can argue that we are not actually slaves. The power for change still resides in our own hands.

    I believe these to largely be misconceptions. Corporations need to survive through competition, they are not welfare organizations. There is room for improvement in management and ownership structure, improvements that increase the potential of the companies, but their function is not to secure employment. To do so threatens the survival of the corporations, putting more at risk. The Unions are not curbed; they are dying because they have largely outlived their purpose. The Unions won. The protections they fought for are law. Their purpose was not to secure raises and positions but to prevent abuse.

    Conspiracy and manipulation is unnecessary, we are led by the nose by our own fear and our desire for security and protection. Nor are the power seekers any different than they have ever been; only the situation has changed. Our own demands forge our shackles; there is no need to subdue us. We have requested a relief from responsibility and offer our liberty as payment. Most of it is not even real, we accept the illusion of security by offering them the illusion of power but no actual transaction takes place.

    No, I don't believe so, at least not any more than has existed throughout history and for the most part far less. Actual slavery and servitude is lower than ever before in history. The general welfare is higher. It is the discrepancies that bother us but it is only because the freedom for some peoples is so much greater than ever before that such become apparent. It is good that people still feel this though, it drives us onwards. But the struggle for liberty and fairness should not become a struggle for security and equality. Not unless you're looking for a Brave New World.


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