everneo the reason being that I pulled out a quote, from the skanda purana mind you, that established that one verse of the SB can deliver the fruit of what ever one can acquire from the eighteen puranas (Sk.P., Visnu Khanda 16/40,42,44,331) "If the Bhagavata is not kept in one's house in the Kali Yuga, of what avail are collections of other scriptures by the hundreds and thousands? How can he be considered a Vaisnava who, in the Kali Yuga, does not keep the Bhagavata in his house? Even if he is a brahmana, he is lower than an outcaste. O Narada, O Sage, wherever the Bhagavata is found in the Kali Yuga, there Hari goes together with all the demigods. O Muni, that pious soul who daily recites a verse from the Bhagavata reaps the fruits of the eighteen Puranas." as for the sadhus worshipping siva, if they ar edoing so for the sake of receiving a materialistic benediction (name, fame, adoration, wealth, power, etc) they are certainly less intelligent because such boons are pertinent to the body which is destined to die SB 10.84.13: One who identifies his self as the inert body composed of mucus, bile and air, who assumes his wife and family are permanently his own, who thinks an earthen image or the land of his birth is worshipable, or who sees a place of pilgrimage as merely the water there, but who never identifies himself with, feels kinship with, worships or even visits those who are wise in spiritual truth — such a person is no better than a cow or an ass. therefore they cannot be sattvic, what to speak of suddha sattvic as indicated SB 4.20.29: Great saintly persons who are always liberated take to Your devotional service because only by devotional service can one be relieved from the illusions of material existence. O my Lord, there is no reason for the liberated souls to take shelter at Your lotus feet except that such souls are constantly thinking of Your feet. As long as one is affected by the modes of material nature, especially by rajas and tamas, he will be very greedy and lusty and will therefore engage in hard tasks, laboring all day and night. Such false egoism carries one from one species of life into another perpetually, and there is no rest in any species of life. they seem to like it "[Lord Śiva addressed his wife, Durgā:] 'O Varānanā, 'I chant the holy name of Rāma, Rāma, Rāma and thus enjoy this beautiful sound. This holy name of Rāmacandra is equal to one thousand holy names of Lord Viṣṇu.' This is a verse from the Bṛhad-viṣṇu-sahasranāma-stotra in the Uttara-khaṇḍa of the Padma Purāṇa (72.335). its not clear why being a servant of visnu is the constitutional position of misery, particularly since it is the prime requisite for entrance into vaikuntha This is the problem - you assert that you have the ability to determine where the vedas are telling the truth and when they are glorifying something inconsequential. This wouldn't be a problem if you had offered a vedic statement to back up your assertion that vedic lieterature has a "generous" nature I didn't actually "boast" - I provided statements from vedic literature to back up my claims to say that some parts of the vedas are wrong and that some parts are right (like you attributing a "generous" nature to the skanda purana) without a vedic statement to back up one's claims is an example of belittling the vedas Unlike you, I have never asserted that any part of the vedas is an object of belittling (although I have asserted that some parts are more important than others) - in other words I have never said words to the effect that "anything in the skanda purana is useless" (unlike you indicating this in reagrd to the SB and BG) - on the contrary, I located a verse in the Skanda Purana that extols the superior nature of the SB BG 2.42-43: Men of small knowledge are very much attached to the flowery words of the Vedas, which recommend various fruitive activities for elevation to heavenly planets, resultant good birth, power, and so forth. Being desirous of sense gratification and opulent life, they say that there is nothing more than this. BG 2.44: In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination for devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take place. BG 2.45: The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature. O Arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the self. BG 2.46: All purposes served by a small well can at once be served by a great reservoir of water. Similarly, all the purposes of the Vedas can be served to one who knows the purpose behind them. What do you think the purpose of the vedas is? “ First establish what is the distinction between the vedas and puranas in terms of authenticity and credibility SB 1.4.16: The great sage Vyāsadeva saw anomalies in the duties of the millennium. This happens on the earth in different ages, due to unseen forces in the course of time. SB 1.4.17-18: The great sage, who was fully equipped in knowledge, could see, through his transcendental vision, the deterioration of everything material, due to the influence of the age. He could also see that the faithless people in general would be reduced in duration of life and would be impatient due to lack of goodness. Thus he contemplated for the welfare of men in all statuses and orders of life. SB 1.4.19: He saw that the sacrifices mentioned in the Vedas were means by which the people's occupations could be purified. And to simplify the process he divided the one Veda into four, in order to expand them among men. SB 1.4.20: The four divisions of the original sources of knowledge [the Vedas] were made separately. But the historical facts and authentic stories mentioned in the Purāṇas are called the fifth Veda. If you are after a vedic commentary (called vedanta sutra or brahma sutra), which is something more than just posting an odd quote from the vedas The Brahma Sūtras reconcile seemingly contradictory and diverse statements of the various Upanishads and the Gītā, by placing each teaching in a doctrinal context. The word sūtra means thread, and the Brahma sūtras literally stitch together the various Vedānta teachings into a logical and self-consistent whole http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedanta_Sutra you can try this but generally such analysis is not prcatical, hence .... While the Upanishads (Śruti prasthāna, the starting point of revelation) and the Bhagavad-Gītā (Smriti prasthāna, the starting point of remembered tradition) are the basic source texts of Vedānta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedanta_Sutra “ I doubt if you have a quote for your hearing BG 14.4: It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father. BG 15.15: I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.
I lost count how many times you repeat yourself without a clue that this odd quote is a compliment for a deity. If you think this establishes something then it is nothing but showing an easy way to get rid of all the lazy idots by diverting them to reciting single verses of SB. Now they are called sattvic. For vaishnavas. If you are a vaishnava you are supposed to keep the SB and recite it. That is the minimal work mandatory. I said sages, not sadhus. Ever heard of 'sayujya' ?! It is your padama purana, your version of shiva and parvati. Treat them like servants. And call yourself suddha sattvic. It is inconsequential if it calls your bluff ? Your hypocrisy is glaring from your out of context quote from BG below : So, You now started belittling vedas because you cannot withstand how they assert about greatness of shiva. For you, they are for your convenience.
the phala srutis that glorify recitations culminate in understanding what one is chanting about - in other words chanting without comprehension is not perfectional How many quotes are required before it no longer becomes odd? In the Brihat-sahasra-nama-stotra (skanda Purana), Lord Siva affirms: navaisnavaya datavyam vikalpopahatatmane bhakti-sraddha-vihinaya visnu-samanya-darsine "These thousand names should not be given to one who is not a devotee of Lord Visnu, to one whose heart is destroyed by mental speculation, to one who has no faith in devotional service, or to one who thinks the demigods are equal to Lord Visnu." na yanti tat-param sreyo visnum sarvesvaresvaram sarva-bhavair anasritya puranam purusottamam "They who do not wholeheartedly take shelter of Lord Visnu, the master of all the demigods, the ancient Supreme Personality of Godhead, do not attain the most auspicious condition of life. At the end of those prayers Goddess Durga also affirms: aho sarvesvaro visnuh sarva-devottamottamah jagad-adi-gurur mudhaih samanya iva viksyate "Lord Visnu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all the demigods, the first spiritual master of the universe. Only fools (mudhah) think the demigods are His equals." yam uddisya sada natho maheso 'pi dig-ambarah jata-bhasmanuliptangas tapasvi viksate janaih "It is to attain Lord Visnu that the demigod Siva performs austerities, his hair matted and his naked body covered with ashes. That is why the people see Lord Siva in that way. there are whole excerpts in the skanda purana that deal with the glorification of visnu, articles dear to visnu (like tulasi) and of course vaishnavas CC Ādi 3.18: "These liberations are sārṣṭi [achieving opulences equal to those of the Lord], sārūpya [having a form the same as the Lord's], sāmīpya [living as a personal associate of the Lord] and sālokya [living on a Vaikuṇṭha planet]. Devotees never accept sāyujya, however, since that is oneness with Brahman. the reason being .... CC Ādi 5.31: Those who attain brahma-sāyujya liberation cannot gain entrance into Vaikuṇṭha; their residence is outside the Vaikuṇṭha planets. and CC Madhya 6.268: "A pure devotee does not like even to hear about sāyujya-mukti, which inspires him with fear and hatred. Indeed, the pure devotee would rather go to hell than merge into the effulgence of the Lord." the reason being CC Madhya 6.263: Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya replied, "The awakening of pure love of Godhead, which is the result of devotional service, far surpasses liberation from material bondage. For those averse to devotional service, merging into the Brahman effulgence is a kind of punishment." because CC Madhya 6.270: Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya concluded, "'Even though he is offered all kinds of liberation, the pure devotee does not accept them. He is fully satisfied engaging in the service of the Lord.'" Actually it is vyasadeva's padma purana - the same vyasadeva who compiled the skanda purana and any other piece of vedic literature you care to mention you misunderstand - everyone except vishnu is a servant (although seeing the happiness that his devotees reap from serving him, he is eager to accept the position of servant for his devotee) Its not clear how you ascertained that a vaisvana thinks the demigods are their servants - on the contrary they think that siva is the most exalted servant of visnhu, more so than themselves SB 12.13.16: Just as the Gańgā is the greatest of all rivers, Lord Acyuta the supreme among deities and Lord Śambhu [Śiva] the greatest of Vaiṣṇavas, so Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the greatest of all Purāṇas. SB 6.3.20-21: Lord Brahmā, Bhagavān Nārada, Lord Śiva, the four Kumāras, Lord Kapila [the son of Devahūti], Svāyambhuva Manu, Prahlāda Mahārāja, Janaka Mahārāja, Grandfather Bhīṣma, Bali Mahārāja, Śukadeva Gosvāmī and I myself know the real religious principle. My dear servants, this transcendental religious principle, which is known as bhāgavata-dharma, or surrender unto the Supreme Lord and love for Him, is uncontaminated by the material modes of nature. It is very confidential and difficult for ordinary human beings to understand, but if by chance one fortunately understands it, he is immediately liberated, and thus he returns home, back to Godhead. If you cannot call a vedic statement to back your views its not clear how what you submit is not a bluff (you could however lodge a challenge of logic eg "why/how is that so?" but not an assertion of truth without a vedic statement on hand) you have a quote from anywhere that establishes that the vedas don't cater for everyone (even jarasandha and ravana were attraced to certain parts of the vedas - BTW guess who they worshipped and for what purposes ....???) once again, if you have a quote that establishes the skanda purana, or any other piece of vedic literature as more conclusive than the gita, feel free to quote it. In the mean time you should be more attentive to the info presented in the gita and see how or if your views are corroborated. Even just simple matters like how can one's relationship with a demigod (based on boons such as health, as indicated by the rg veda quot eyou submitted) be greater than one's relationship with visnu (based on boon s of attaining an eternal state free from the modes of nature) so given that people have varieties of conveniences (compare the conveniences of ravana to the conveniences of prahlada) , doesn't it stand to reason that there are a variety of teachings in the vedas - and that just as everyone's needs and interests are different (some being higher and some being lower) there are similarly higher and lowers aspects of the vedas?
In 'Hare Krishna' version of Skanda Purana ? Brihat-sahasra-nama-stotra is in Padma Purana which is 'classified' as vaishnavite. I don't think Lord Vishnu needs anyone's service. As a vaishnava, take Krishna seriously when he talks about liberation in BG. The sages who whorshipped Shiva set their goal as liberation from all material bond, cycle of birth. They sought Shiva Sayujya. No 'serve the lord' bullshit. This will be automatically answered if you reply to Ayodhya's post :
he is not dependant on the service as for taking liberation seriously BG 14.26: One who engages in full devotional service, unfailing in all circumstances, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman. therefore they frequently enocunter frustration SB 10.2.32: [Someone may say that aside from devotees, who always seek shelter at the Lord's lotus feet, there are those who are not devotees but who have accepted different processes for attaining salvation. What happens to them? In answer to this question, Lord Brahmā and the other demigods said:] O lotus-eyed Lord, although nondevotees who accept severe austerities and penances to achieve the highest position may think themselves liberated, their intelligence is impure. They fall down from their position of imagined superiority because they have no regard for Your lotus feet. Isopanisad 12: Those who are engaged in the worship of demigods enter into the darkest region of ignorance, and still more so do the worshipers of the impersonal Absolute. the reason being that demigods have no eternal relationshp with their own body, so what possible boon can they give to enable one to surmount samsara? BG 8.16: From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again. he assumes that the instructions of the vedas are all equally transcendental - this doesn't explain why krsna requests arjuna to transcend the vedas BG 2.45: The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature. O Arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the self. I think you would have a difficult time asserting that the arthava veda innvolves transcendental instructions. and there are also numerous erudite experts in the vedas possessed of nefarious reputation , eg ravana (Shiva Tandava Stotra), jarasandha, etc
he is not dependant on the service as for taking liberation seriously BG 14.26: One who engages in full devotional service, unfailing in all circumstances, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman. therefore they frequently enocunter frustration SB 10.2.32: [Someone may say that aside from devotees, who always seek shelter at the Lord's lotus feet, there are those who are not devotees but who have accepted different processes for attaining salvation. What happens to them? In answer to this question, Lord Brahmā and the other demigods said:] O lotus-eyed Lord, although nondevotees who accept severe austerities and penances to achieve the highest position may think themselves liberated, their intelligence is impure. They fall down from their position of imagined superiority because they have no regard for Your lotus feet. Isopanisad 12: Those who are engaged in the worship of demigods enter into the darkest region of ignorance, and still more so do the worshipers of the impersonal Absolute. the reason being that demigods have no eternal relationshp with their own body, so what possible boon can they give to enable one to surmount samsara? BG 8.16: From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again. he assumes that the instructions of the vedas are all equally transcendental - this doesn't explain why krsna requests arjuna to transcend the vedas BG 2.45: The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature. O Arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the self. I think you would have a difficult time asserting that the arthava veda innvolves transcendental instructions. and there are also numerous erudite experts in the vedas possessed of nefarious reputation , eg ravana, jarasandha, etc
Krishna was killed by a hunter by mistake. His body was buried or cremated ? You asked vedic backup. He quoted vedas straight. Your 'transcendental' twist has no relevance here. And why should a vedic declaration should explain your unrelevant quote from BG. BG 2.45 is about 3 modes whereas what Ayodhya quoted is the answer to the very question of who is Shiva. Your attempts to show shiva as demigod are increasingly becoming silly. Shall we propose to ban vedas and declare only SB as authentic ?
Ravana and his people had to flee to the north when the sea level rose to consume most of his land, so when do most Hindus say this sea level rise occurred?
Since Ravana lived in a palace, that rules out the sea level rise before 3000 B.C., when such building is believed to have begun.
These things are taken out of context. The Kena Upanishad, Mundaka Upanishad, and the Svetavatara Upanishad don't say those things about Siva or Rudra. In context the Mundaka Upanishad says that about "The Purusha". In context the Kena Upanishad says that about "Brahman". In context the Svetavatara Upanishad says that about "Ishvara" (The Lord). Also Krishna is technically higher than Visnu and Siva, since Krishna says that they are forms of himself. Also the way Krsna describes himself matches up to Ishvara, Brahm, etc...mentioned in the Upanishads and other scriptures.
Krishna cannot be higher than Vishnu. That is a construct of later scriptures and cannot be considered true based on literary interpretations. Vishnu exists in the earliest Upanishads but Krishna does not exist in certain earlier scriptures, thus, we can easily conclude that Krishna is an avatar of Vishnu, not Vishnu an avatar of Krishna. You people really need to stay away from Krishna Consciousness.
given that the vedas (including puranas and upanishads) are all established as being compiled by srila vyasadeva that regardless of whether you are talking about vishnu or krsna, or any other vishnu incarnation, they are beyond the jurisdiction of linear time and non different from their body on what basis do you assert that krishna is a 'later' incarnation than visnhu? PS - I reccomend that you stay away from analysis of vedic history from empirical eurocentric historians
actually my point was that any vishnu avatar cannot be determined by linear time, since they are beyond it. It is just like the sun which appears from an earthly perspective to be created at sunrise and destroyed at sunset, yet actually remains constant in its constitutional position. There are stacks of references to vishnu avatars being beyond time, the three modes of nature, causeless, eternal etc
http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/ The Srimad bhagvatam, in Sanskrit, English and Dutch, arranged in twelve so-called cantos, comprises 335 chapters with about 18000 verses. It is that collection of stories which stresses the prime importance of the maintaining aspect of God as impersonated by the transcendental form of Lord Vishnu.
This doesn't make any sense to say that Krishna not higher than Visnu because Vishnu is mentioned before him....according to Krsna he in some form incarnates every once in a while...how does Visnu being mentioned before make it so that Krsna isn't higher? BG 10.21: Of the Ādityas I am Viṣṇu, of lights I am the radiant sun, of the Maruts I am Marīci, and among the nakshatras I am the moon. BG 10.23: Of all the Rudras I am Lord Śiva, of the Yakṣas and Rākṣasas I am the Lord of wealth [Kuvera], of the Vasus I am fire [Agni], and of mountains I am Meru. Also this argument about who's superior Siva or Vishnu is pointless....they seem to be described the same...yet they're different... Here in the Garuda Purana, when asked by Garuda about obtaining liberation, Vishnu seems to describes Siva as superior to himself: "The Blessed Lord said: Listen, O Târkṣya, and I will explain to you what you have asked, even by the hearing of which a man is released from the world of change. There is a Shining One, Śiva, who has the nature of Supreme Brâhmaṇ, who is partless, all-knowing, all-doing, Lord of all, stainless and secondless, self-illumined, beginningless and endless, beyond the Beyond, without attributes, Being and Knowing and Bliss. That which is considered the individual is from a part of Him." (Garuda Purana, XVI.5-7) Many other scriptures however state that Vishnu is above all, causeless, eternal, etc.... Why avoid Krsna consciousness (or Siva consciousness)?
everneo whole chapter on it few excerpts Krsna explained this earlier BG 4.6: Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all living entities, I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form. on the strength of this verse, not even sankhyacharya asserted that krishna had a mundane form BG 7.25: I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My internal potency, and therefore they do not know that I am unborn and infallible. he gave a quote that says siva is beyond the modes (this is not contary to declarations that the pure devotee of vishnu is beyond the modes has an essential part to play inthe cosmic manifestation (this is not contrary to siva being in the status of a guna avatar - namely tamas - not to say he is tamasic but he is in charge of that bestows bodily health (but the body, with or without such benedictions, perishes - at the very least its not the best benediction one could hope to score from sivaji) as for the kena upanisad, that is not specifically talking about siva, but is a dialouge expressing what qualtiies has been heard about the absolute, withthe conclusion being that it is not empirically perceptable, because the subject matter is transcendental (not sure how that fits with the argument at hand) and the Mund Up quote references the form, of which there is an entire chapter in the Bg - again, not sure of the connection No I was asserting that the vedas is a vast body of knowledge that can be utilized from everyone from the grossly materialistic (the most common customers actually, since 90% of the vedas deals with karma kanda, or getting a good deal out of the three modes) to the philosophical (9% deals with discerning the difference between what is sat and asat (eternal and temporary) and last but not least, 1% deals with the means an d nature of unmotivated devotional service to the absolute therefore using the vedas requires vedanta sutra (literally - the logic of the conclusion of the vedas) - and ironically - the SB is the vedanta sutra commentary on the vedas by Vyasadeva, the compiler of the vedas hence there are quotes such as Dry arguments are inconclusive. A great personality whose opinion does not differ from others is not considered a great sage. Simply by studying the Vedas, which are variegated, one cannot come to the right path by which religious principles are understood. The solid truth of religious principles is hidden in the heart of an unadulterated, self-realized person. Consequently, as the scriptures confirm, one should accept whatever progressive path the mahājanas advocate. - Mahābhārata, Vana-pārva (313.117).
Referring to my post about Shiva in the Vedas - The third reference has nothing to do with Shiva bestowing physical health. It says that He is the heart, He is the Earth, etc. and has nothing to do with your silly interpretations.
when you come up with a better line of analysis than "you are silly", let me know Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! P.S - thanks for checking my spelling with such vigilance
Please explain to me how the third statement in my post about Shiva in the Vedas deals with his blessing of physical well-being.
