Go to Hell!

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by one_raven, Aug 19, 2008.

  1. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

    No, really. It’s a valley near Jerusalem which was owned by Hinnom (Joshua 15:8 and 18:6, II Kings 23:10, II Chronicles 28:3 and 33:6, Nehemiah 11:30, Jeremiah 19:2-6 and 7:32).

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    One argument many people have against the so-called “Judeo-Christian” God is the supposed existence of Hell as a place of eternal suffering for punishment of the sinners.
    Well, what if there was no Hell?

    Obviously, much of the imagery of Hell and “The Devil” come from artists and social tradition over the years, not from the Bible.
    What, then, DOES come from the Bible?

    I read an interesting article yesterday.
    While I don’t agree with the author’s conclusions and interpretations, he made some very interesting points and claims.
    I haven’t really had time to fully research this, but I plan on spending a lot of time with it.
    I thought some here may find the idea interesting.

    Three different words were translated as “Hell” in the Bible; Sheol, Hades and Gehenna.

    I think it is fairly common knowledge that the Jews made no definitive statements regarding what happens after death. The word translated to “Hell” in the King James Bible was “Sheol” in the Tanakh. The Hebrew word Sheol means “unseen”. Not only did the Jews make no claim that Hell existed, but the word they used seems to imply an open admission of no knowledge of hat happens after death. Sheol was translated by the King James “scholars” as “Hell” 31 times, “the grave” 31 times and “the pit” three times.

    So, that leaves the New Testament.
    Did Jesus invent Hell?
    The two words which were translated as “Hell” in the KJV were Hades and Gehenna.

    Hades, you may be aware, was the Greek God and concept of the underworld.
    The Septuagint translators used the word “Hades” to signify the Hebrew word “Sheol” and this is where the confusion seems to begin.
    In Matthew 11:23 and Luke 10:15, Jesus stated that the city of Capernaum “which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to Hades”.

    Modern translations do not translate Sheol and Hades to “Hell” – which signifies the wide scholarly acceptance of the mistranslation of the past.

    The other word translated in the KJV to “Hell” was Gehenna.
    Gehenna was first used in the New Testament during the sermon on the mount in Mark 5:21-22:
    Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.
    Here, Gehenna was translated as Hell.
    The question, then, is “what is/was Gehenna?”

    Gehenna, as I said, was a place – it was the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom.
    Hinnom first appears in the Tanakh in Joshua 15:8 and 18:6.

    In II Kings 23:10 King Josiah “defiled Topheth in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.
    Molech was an idol in the form of a bull worshipped by some.

    Topheth (or Tophet) means “a place of burning”.
    Topheth was where King Ahaz burnt incense and his children in the fire (II Chrionicles 28:3) and where King Manasseh burned his children (II Chronicles 33:6). In Jeremiah 19 2:6, Jeremiah condemned the place and the people living there in the name of the Lord for their evil ways.

    Jeremiah 7:31-33:
    And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place. And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away.

    Gehenna became a wasteland. It was a trash dump, a place to discard animal carcasses and dispose of (by burning) executed criminals. Fires were constantly burning and the air was putrid and full of smoke. The historian Josephus said the valley was heaped with dead bodies of Jews following the Roman siege of Jerusalem in 69 CE.

    In Isaaiah 30:30-33, God slaughtered and burned many Jews in anger and indignation.

    Gehenna became, in the common consciousness of the Jews in Jesus’ time a condemned place of judgment, death, fire, rotting flesh, corruption and slaughter of idolaters and heathens.
    Not really a lot different than the Greek concept of Hades.

    Gehenna was translated to Hell 12 times in the New Testament:
    Matthew 5:21-22, 5:29-30, 10:28, 23:15, 23:23 and Luke 12:4-5

    I have always thought that eternal damnation was inconsistent with Jesus’ teachings and the image he was portraying of his father.
    This article seems to suggest that the Hell of eternal damnation was nothing more than a construct wrought by poor, presumptive translations, artists and social traditions.

    What do you think?

    Here is the original article:
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  3. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    I think it all sounds convincing

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  5. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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  7. Tnerb Banned Banned

    Is the point actually that hell is an invented construct and all christians today are 'misguided' for lack of a better word into believing that their teachings are saying one may go to hell?
  8. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    No, the point is that hell was an actual place on Earth, and that it somehow over the years became this supernatural dwelling for the devil.
    You know the lake of fire and brimstone and all that.
    While in reality it may just have been a garbage dump.
  9. Tnerb Banned Banned

    I realize that. What i am saying is were christians fooled into believing that there was a hell when really there was only this place...
  10. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    I don't know but I think it just grew this way, may through oral transmission of stories. Perhaps it started out as an analogy.
  11. Tnerb Banned Banned

    I was trying to find in his post some hint as to that point that I made in which is quoted by your post.

    However it does not appear to exist at the moment.
    I would quote him but I do not have the effort or energy.
  12. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Maybe just wait for his return, he might have some ideas about it

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  13. Myles Registered Senior Member

    He may not return. As we are told " out of hell there is no redemption "
  14. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    I meant One Raven though

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  15. Mr. Hamtastic whackawhackado! Registered Senior Member

    I am not a linguist, thus I have trouble when it comes to things like this. I would like to ask a question though. Revelation 20:15 states "and anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." in th NKJV. I googled it and can't seem to find what the latin is for "lake of fire". I would like to know this.
  16. Adstar Valued Senior Member

    Amazing the lengths people will go to in their attempts to twist simple statements that they just cannot accept into something totally false.

    The lake of fire is the eternal lake of fire and people will be caste into it and they will be in torment forever and ever.

    If people don't believe that then so be it. But trying to twist the scriptures into saying something totally different to what it clearly states smacks of the desperation of those who cling onto anything that will save them from fear.

    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
  17. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Provide evidence for this eternal lake of fire.
  18. sniffy Banned Banned

    lake of fire - a large bowl of chilli sauce?

    The books that are collated into 'the bible' were written by different people who spoke different languages and these were then translated by different people who spoke another set of different languages.

    And then it all gets intepreted over the centuries by different people speaking different languages (and may I add different motives to the melting pot...?).

    (one -raven's signature - god is a chinese whisper??)

    So depending on the interpretor:
    Hell might be the equivalent of the nanny's 'naughty step' or
    a desert waste land or
    a rather unpleasant town that only naughty people reside in such as Las Vegas or
    the sun or
    the centre of the earth
    a bowl of chilli sauce

    Anyway one thing is at least clear; if you don't want to end up in any of these places; behave yourself!
  19. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member


    Adstar my friend,

    You can easily do exactly the same thing as this only with other scriptures. I really wish you could see the truth of that. It might help you be a little more understanding and less condemning of others.

    Take Care
  20. Yorda Registered Senior Member

    you only believe that because you've been brainwashed into that since you were a little child. it doesn't matter how weird something sounds, if you believe in something long enough it starts to feel real. that's why muslims get muslim children and christians get christian children.
  21. Adstar Valued Senior Member

    No. Why should i?

    One either believes it or not.

    You must first either believe in God or not and believe He is the God of Abraham.

    So the only evidence is the Word of God. If one believes that then they will believe in the Lake of Fire.

    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
  22. Adstar Valued Senior Member

    I believe it because the message of the Bible resonates with its truth that moves my conscience. And i do not share the religion of my parents; I strongly disagree with their beliefs. There are many people who come to believe from families that have no faith or are of differing faith. Just as their are many atheists who come from religious families.

    That’s why simple neat little statements such as the one below are so wrong. But because they explain things in a simplistic black and white kind of way they are trumpeted by people who want to see things in a simplistic black and white way.

    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
  23. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Haha.. how predictable.

    Isn't it your duty as a Christian to collect souls ?

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